tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post8785199849566358542..comments2024-03-28T05:22:10.255-07:00Comments on Broadsword by Ajai Shukla - Strategy. Economics. Defence.: Coming up: an analysis of the development cost of the LCABroadswordhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comBlogger69125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-16576770754881706422011-02-18T14:43:45.686-08:002011-02-18T14:43:45.686-08:00LCA and Economics::::::::: http://www.bharat-raksh...LCA and Economics::::::::: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE3-5/sainis.html<br />`LCA is about creating wealth for country' -- Dr Kota Harinarayana::::::: http://www.hinduonnet.com/businessline/2001/01/13/stories/041367ju.htm<br />Tejas is no longer a mirage ::::::::: http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/732/<br />Arming The Dangerous::::::::: http://www.siliconindia.com/magazine/prnt.php?QOI766674637<br />LCA India’s soaring ambition and the sobering reality::::::: http://indianmilitary.wordpress.com/2009/02/01/lca-indias-soaring-ambition-and-the-sobering-reality/<br />India comes out fighting::::::::Sandeepnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-87415205975891642222011-02-18T14:43:19.778-08:002011-02-18T14:43:19.778-08:00ADA has had a profitable commercial spin-off in it...ADA has had a profitable commercial spin-off in its Autolay integrated automated software system for the design and development of 3-D laminated composite elements (which has been licensed to both Airbus and Infosys). It was licensed to commercial aircraft maker Airbus Industrie for $3.2 million for use in its new commercial super jumbo project: A 380.<br /><br />ADA subsequently handed over Autolay along with the associated Intellectual Property rights to Infosys Technologies for an unspecified royalty. Infosys is mandated with further developing the software, enhancing its features to interface with other related tools and programs, and increasing applicability in related areas.<br /><br /><b>Hence, R&D expenditure of LCA is being subsidized by the sale of spin-off technologies. </b><br /><br />The LCA development has also given spin off benefits like the development of heat exchangers, radars, auto locks etc.<br /><br />ADA gained valuable experience in design and development of the LCA’s avionics suite and its integration with the flight controls, environmental controls, aircraft utilities systems management, stores management system, etc. are invaluable in terms of advancement of India’s indigenous aerospace capabilities.<br /><br />The ease with which IJT was made was a culmination of the experience gained. It would be better to request DRDO to provided a list of spin-offs and the money generated through then. Hope they do not take 5 years to respond to that<br /><br />A quote of Air Marshal Rajkumar,<b> “Nobody knows of the half-a-million lines of code that our software engineers had to write or the 16 onboard computers that the aircraft boasts of. In short, nobody knows of the complexities of making the aircraft. The delay reinforced the belief in some that India could never make something new, that we were forever destined to be patchwork artists.”</b><br /><br />Not to be mentioned, but needs to remind critics again and again <b>India’s near and distant future military and civil aerospace demands will be so gigantic that the LCA programme will keep plant utilisation capacity of a few production units at high levels for several decades. All it requires is a little more national affection, priority and support.</b>Sandynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-71870526615113855952011-02-18T14:37:39.821-08:002011-02-18T14:37:39.821-08:00Area of R&D & Outline of advances made in ...Area of R&D & Outline of advances made in the field<br /><br />Aerodynamics and Flight Mechanics<br /> <br /><br />CFD codes, various aspects of wind tunnel testing, development of Control Law, and control law simulation and testing facility, use of supercomputer to attack various aerodynamics issues, Finite Element Method codes, Aero Elasticity Studies.<br /><br />Airframe including Carbon Fiber Composite {CFC) Wing and Fin<br /> <br /><br />Precision machining of special metals like Titanium (challenging), Aluminum, Composites manufacture and machining, Carbon Disc brakes.<br /><br />Propulsion System<br /> <br /><br />Engine Design work at GTRE, design and manufacture of very high reliability sub-components like fan-blades, casings etc, for the Kaveri, JFS, Hydro-mechanical parts, Engine Control Unit, Nozzle Control Unit [51].<br /><br />Mechanical General Systems and Manufacturing.<br /> <br /><br />Landing gear, Brake Systems, AMAGB, Brake Parachutes , CAD-CAM software, Environmental Control Systems, Application software for Distributed Numerical Control, software to improve control over CNC instruments.<br /><br />Flight Control System<br /> <br /><br />Control Software, Iron Bird testing facility, Mini Bird, Cockpit Controls, Actuators and other components of Digital Flight Control System and computer [52].<br /><br />Avionics and Electrical Systems<br /> <br /><br />Design of Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC), LCD, Antennae, Testing facilities like DAIR, Communication Equipment, Control and Coding Unit, IFF, Various cockpit systems and simulators, Mission Computer, Lightning test facility, Multi-Mode Radar.<br /><br />Quality Assurance and System Effectiveness<br /> <br /><br />Several quality assurance programs like Failure Mode Effect and Criticality analysis, Fault Tree Analysis, `Walk through check lists’ etc… were implemented [53]. Software like C-SCAN was developed to deal with QC issues in composites [54], Software Test Plan based on DOD standard.Sandynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-34652196094278555302011-02-18T14:34:24.951-08:002011-02-18T14:34:24.951-08:00I was just checking how many spin offs would have ...I was just checking how many spin offs would have been generated during the development of LCA development and how much money they would have generated. And also, how development of LCA would have ineffect eased the development of other projects.<br /><br />All information given below are taken from various sources.<br /><br />Software development has been a major spin-off of the LCA project. A number of Application Softwares have been developed, which have various no-aeronautical applications as well.<br /><br />Graphical Interactive Three dimensional Applications (GITA) is a user friendly Computer Aided Design (CAD) package, well suited for mechanical, automobile, aeronautical and tool design industries.<br /><br />Finite Element Structural Synthesis Expert (FINESSE) is a general purpose finite element analysis package. FINEGRAF is a powerful interactive graphics pre and post processor, making complex finite element modelling and results interpretation much easier.<br /><br />AUTOLAY is a software system for design, analysis and manufacture of composites. It reduces design cycle time of high quality, robust laminated composite components.<br /><br />PRANA is a Virtual Reality software tool which gives life to CAD and engineering analyses data in the virtual world.<br /><br />Numerous packages for Computer Aided Manufacture (CAM) and Computational Fluid Dynamic (CFD) codes for aerodynamic analyses have also been developed.Sandynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-88650673242200290362011-02-18T14:25:01.336-08:002011-02-18T14:25:01.336-08:00I was not conviced about the Mig-33 relation with ...I was not conviced about the Mig-33 relation with J-17, till I fould: http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/53816-mig-33-jf-17-inside-story.html<br /><br />"Product 33 became well advanced, it was not ordered due to the air force's reorientation towards multi-role aircraft - the lightweight Product 33 could be used for close air combat only. The basic Product 33 design was offered by Mikoyan to China as the FC-1 fighter. ". <b>Well, nice to know my belief is trashed, thankyou.</b><br /><br />bUT.. lEAVE IT.Sandynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-7414389001423161602011-02-18T02:46:17.011-08:002011-02-18T02:46:17.011-08:00china bought jf-17 design from russia post 1992. I...china bought jf-17 design from russia post 1992. It is the mig 33 which was cancelled by them. No great metamorphosis. Show me one indigenous a/c by china.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-61209369748943362932011-02-18T00:56:46.287-08:002011-02-18T00:56:46.287-08:00thanks AA.
Sandy, 150 mn for JF-17 is tosh, 500 ...thanks AA. <br /><br />Sandy, 150 mn for JF-17 is tosh, 500 mn is more believable but still at the lower estimate. <br />we do need to keep in mind that many of JF-17's systems like FBW were developed as a part of the J-10 project.ProtonRivernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-77790521506354231802011-02-18T00:40:00.534-08:002011-02-18T00:40:00.534-08:00Pakistan spend some money on upgrading j-7FS to J-...Pakistan spend some money on upgrading j-7FS to J-7 sabre (super-7). The project was cancelled due to spiralling cost (40%) and western relectence. The chinese went ahead with the uprgradation naming it FC-1. Later Pakistan joined the program with 50% stake, which is 75 million. It is very difficult to guage the cost of J-17. Pakistan statement that they 50% stake would be an eyewash. Let's go by the $500 figure. But I think, it is a culmination of long drone process which now known as j-17Sandynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-15465662784220088052011-02-17T20:57:06.167-08:002011-02-17T20:57:06.167-08:00So both me and AA have reached the conclusion that...So both me and AA have reached the conclusion that amount spent on LCA till date is around US$ 2.4 to US$ 2.6 in current US$ values. <br /><br />Now my further estimate is that amount spent on R&D of Rafale or Eurofighter is around US$ 25 Billion in current US$ values. These values are hidden and difficult to estimate clearly.<br /><br />The R&D cost of Gripen is also hidden into production costs and difficult to estimate clearly<br /><br />vijay/vijayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-90976662449106948622011-02-17T13:57:47.831-08:002011-02-17T13:57:47.831-08:00The metamorphasis of Mig-21 under the Chinese shou...The metamorphasis of Mig-21 under the Chinese should itself be a very very interesting topic. But it is better not to spend time on it.<br /><br />Rightly or wrongly, I believe JF-17 is a product of continues modification of J-7 (mig-21) Check the modification variants (J-7I, J-7I (modified), J-7II(replaced by a rearward hinged canopy jettisoned before the ejection seat), J-7IIA, J-7IIM, J-7IIH, J-7IIK, J-7III, J-7B, J-7B, J-7FS (under-chin inlet and WP-13IIS engine), J-7G, F-7FS, F-7P-sabre (side inlet) then to 'Saber II'. Saber II was continued to develop under new name FC-1”.<br /><br />The FC-1 (j-17) design of today has little in common with the J-7 but again it is a unbelievable metamorphosis. <br /><br />http://weapons.technology.youngester.com/2009/05/jf-17-thunder.htmlSandynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-77511795144558102992011-02-17T12:57:15.351-08:002011-02-17T12:57:15.351-08:00“Don’t we need to substract the money generated th...<b>“Don’t we need to substract the money generated through spin offs and also the saving we make on the future projects under development from the total development cost of LCA"</b>Sandynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-2319563094503370412011-02-17T12:49:58.701-08:002011-02-17T12:49:58.701-08:00JF-17 program cost is valued at US$ 500 million by...JF-17 program cost is valued at US$ 500 million by wikipedia. And as per sinodefence.com the Estimated cost is US$15~20 million : http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/fc1.asp<br /><br />As per http://www.defencetalk.com/fc-1-jf-17-thunder-16801/<br />Pakistan invested 75 million USD (half of the total development cost). Then the total development cost should be $150 million<br /><br />Very varied figures.Sandynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-85736320901915838832011-02-17T10:11:57.619-08:002011-02-17T10:11:57.619-08:00Total cost for 126 LCAs Mark-2 with AESA
Inflatio...Total cost for 126 LCAs Mark-2 with AESA<br /><br />Inflation adjusted development cost US$ 2.4 Billion + US$ 1.2 Billion = US$ 3.6 to say 4 Billion<br />AESA development cost = say US$ 500 -1000Million<br />Kaveri JV Cost = say = US$ 500 -1000million + 500 Million is spent costs<br />LCA = 126 x 45 million = US$ 5.7 to say 6.5 Billion<br /><br />Total US$ 11-14 Billion dollars for 4 variants of IAF & Naval aircraft + simulators. Apart from benefit of developing aerospace sector with off shoots like IJT-36, avionics upgrade, drop tanks, pylons, naval engines etc for IAF fleet wide etc. <br /><br />But the real savings come in costs of spares, repair and maintenance. For instance, as a thumbrule the cost of spares is 4 to 6 times the cost of fly away unit in 30 years. <br /><br />Add to this the cost of upgrade, simulators, ground support equipment, weapon integration, war reserves etc then the cost to nation is 10 times of a unit fly away cost in 30 years.<br /><br />So even 10% saving in US$ 6 Billion x 10=US$ 60 Billion will pay for the cost of R&D though I estimate that the savings will be around 1/3rd of US$ 60 Billion i.e. saving of US$ 20 billion in next 30 years compared to nearest competitor like Gripen<br /><br /><br /><br />vijayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-4874399397410227262011-02-17T09:59:24.169-08:002011-02-17T09:59:24.169-08:00Ajay & ProtonRiver,
I'm able to price adju...Ajay & ProtonRiver,<br />I'm able to price adjust using INR GNP deflator from World Bank. This means that 1983 1Cr INR --> Mid-2010 5.87 Cr. Based on PR's figures:<br /><br />500Cr 1983-1990 (7yrs) = Rs 2382Cr (2010) = $521M <br />1688cr 1993-2003 (10yrs)= Rs 3109Cr (2010) = $680M<br />4492Cr 2004-2010 (7yrs) = Rs 5226 Cr (2010) = $1143M<br />1284Cr bal till 2012 (2yrs) = Rs 1284 Cr (2011) or $281M<br />Total funding at mid-2010 INR values = Rs 12,000Cr (exact!) or $2,625M<br />Assuming this is the entire budget for Mk1 & 2, $/fighter (say 200) = 13.1M.AAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-10204869290246919642011-02-17T09:55:31.565-08:002011-02-17T09:55:31.565-08:00PAC Report extract by livefist
The programme of i...PAC Report extract by livefist<br /><br />The programme of indigenous development of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) had been initiated in August‟ 1983 with the Government sanction of an interim development cost of Rs 560.00 Cr. ………………The Full Scale Engineering Development Programme Phase-I (LCA FSED Phase-I) was sanctioned in April‟1993 at a cost of Rs 2188 Cr (including the interim sanction of Rs 560 Cr given in 1983). ………………… While Phase-I programme was in progress, the Government decided to concurrently go ahead with the build of operational proto vehicles. The scope of FSED Phase-2 was to build three prototypes of operational aircrafts including a trainer and also to build the infrastructure required for producing 08 aircrafts per year and build eight Limited Series Production (LSP) aircrafts. Government sanctioned FSED Phase-II of the programme at a total cost of Rs 3301.78 Cr on 20 Nov‟2001. ……….Governing body of ADA in its 41st meeting held on 22 Nov 2007 had detail review of the Programme and deliberated on achievements vis-à-vis objectives of LCA FSED Phase-II programme and recommended the extension of FSED Phase-II likely date of completion till 31 Dec 2012 (IOC by Dec 2010 & FOC by Dec 2012) with GE-F404-IN20 Engine and to develop & productionise the Mark 2 variant of Tejas aircraft and also recommended the constitution of Cost Revision Committee to assess additional requirement of funds. ……………Committee after careful consideration of the projections made and taking into account the increase in the cost of material, manpower, additional activities to complete the IOC & FOC, maintenance of facilities and expanded scope of the programme etc., recommended additional fund of Rs 2475.78 Cr for completing FSED Phase-II activities with PDC Dec 2012, Rs 2431.55 Cr for developing Tejas Mark 2 with alternate engine (LCA FSED Phase-III Programme) and Rs 395.65 Cr for Technology Development Programme (Total additional funds of Rs 5302.98 Cr). Recommendations of the Cost Revision Committee was accepted by Government and in November 2009, sanction was accorded for continuing Full Scale Engineering Development of LCA till Dec 2018 with an additional cost of Rs 5302.98 Cr.<br /><br /><br />from vijayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-34148080725432661402011-02-17T08:25:00.118-08:002011-02-17T08:25:00.118-08:00According to a report, Out of every $100 USA spend...According to a report, Out of every $100 USA spends on its defense buys from their domestic companies, $60 goes back to the US in the form of income taxes, number of support jobs created, dual usage of infrastructure, etc. <br /> That means the tax payer burden is only 40% of the cost. Can you please take this also into consideration while making cost comparisons?<br /> All the benefits in these cutting edge technology research cannot be measured in money terms( at least not immediately). United States's initial investments in its freeway road system, wireless technology, internet, Civilian aircrafts, Space and satellites, Nuclear Energy etc are all by products of their defense research. above all their defense funding created worlds best universities. today's DARPA's projects are future civilian technologies.<br /> If we spent some X amount on a certain project and failed, we need to look at the reasons why we failed and rectify them but not fold up completely. For a big country like India and with the kind of neighbors it has, indigenous defense systems are not a luxury but a must.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12145489809104149708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-80352527308219818222011-02-17T07:21:46.510-08:002011-02-17T07:21:46.510-08:00the pic is of LSP-7...u can zoom near the intake (...the pic is of LSP-7...u can zoom near the intake (left hand side) and see...its written LSP-7Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-49977215695330380822011-02-17T06:45:33.758-08:002011-02-17T06:45:33.758-08:00Rohan, Good GoD, don't you have a sense of hum...Rohan, Good GoD, don't you have a sense of humour? "Wankers" is often used as a term of friendly banter, which is how I meant it and how everyone else on the blog seems to have interpreted it.<br /><br />But, if I have offended your sense of decency in any way... my most profound apologies, Rohan Bhaiji.<br /><br />And, for heaven's sake, don't take Bhai to mean what many in Mumbai interpret the term as....!!!Broadswordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-49335920362622617312011-02-17T06:20:59.057-08:002011-02-17T06:20:59.057-08:00http://www.cagindia.org/reports/defence/1999_book1...http://www.cagindia.org/reports/defence/1999_book1/chapter6_p2.htm<br /><br /> <br />While the total development cost of LCA over a period of eight to ten years was assessed in August 1983 at Rs 560 crore, the feasibility study assessed the development and production investment cost at Rs 750 crore in May 1985. As against this, the cost of FSED Phase-I alone was estimated to be Rs 2188 crore against which Rs 1449 crore had already been spent on the LCA programme till March 1998. The unit fly-away cost of LCA assessed as Rs 10.30 crore in 1985, is now estimated to cost between Rs 80 to 85 crore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-31512679859533341232011-02-17T05:57:37.620-08:002011-02-17T05:57:37.620-08:00If you compare with Gripen then do not forget:-
1...If you compare with Gripen then do not forget:-<br /><br />1. Real R&D costs are difficult to judge as R&D costs and production costs were merged<br />2. LCA development included development of engine unlike Gripen + naval variants of engine<br />3. LCA development costs includes development of naval variants unlike Gripen<br />4. Future LCA development costs till 2018 would be equivalent to Gripen NG costs<br />5. Nobody pulled the plug on supply of components to Sweden<br />6. Sweden already had “aerospace” industry and it did not need to be developed from scratch unlike LCA developmentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-13089577842741186322011-02-17T04:31:36.090-08:002011-02-17T04:31:36.090-08:00Development cost for LCA also includes costs of se...Development cost for LCA also includes costs of setting up the infra for productin of materials in India , since this is being done for the first time the dev costs would be comparitovely higher but the next plane to be MADE IN INDIA would benefit from this already set up Infra.<br />I don't want to poke into numbers as they would never represent the "true" R&D cost of LCA.Thalivarhttp://www.rajanifans.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-36469621981547097632011-02-17T04:14:38.085-08:002011-02-17T04:14:38.085-08:00contd...
I say this because stealth or not a 30 o...contd...<br /><br />I say this because stealth or not a 30 or 20 ton aircraft is useless for jobs suited for 10 ton aircraft. Its like using sword to cut a cake. All this put Gripen as the front runner for MMRCA. <br /><br />Will be glad to hear your views on all these points.<br /><br />Thanks<br />Joydeep Ghoshjoydeep ghoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00038225081192821456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-85153947215130778972011-02-17T04:07:48.646-08:002011-02-17T04:07:48.646-08:00contd...
5. There is scope for further developmen...contd...<br /><br />5. There is scope for further development on Gripen despite the fact that its under development since mid 90s, which is not the case for F-16 single engine planes that are at end of development cycle<br /><br />6. The AESA radar of Gripen that is still under development will allow Indian technicians and scientists chance to work on its development and further develop a Indian AESA radar for AMCA, a 5th gen aircraft<br /><br />Ajai sir<br /><br />you proposed that India should go for JSF-35, same way I am taking liberty of proposing that post selecting Gripen, India work on developing a single engine 10 ton 5th gen aircraft to complement the 30 ton FGFA and the 20 ton AMCA, incorporating tech from Gripen and Tejas as also stealth.<br /><br />contd....joydeep ghoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00038225081192821456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-24878026342280302402011-02-17T03:51:34.861-08:002011-02-17T03:51:34.861-08:00contd....
I am not much of a technical person but...contd....<br /><br />I am not much of a technical person but I wuld like to say few things that if India chooses Gripen in MMRCA, it will enjoy enormous benefits, like<br /><br />1. Engine commonality with both Gripen and Tejas engine sourced from GE<br /><br />2. Full TOT including source codes will give Indian scientist and technicians ability to do whatever tweak they want<br /><br />3. Lowest cost over other MMRCA contenders and from a neutral country makes this a ideal deal without political compulsions<br /><br />4. We are looking to replace Mig 21 single engine aircrafts and the Gripen is ideally suitd than its twin engine partners<br /><br />contd...joydeep ghoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00038225081192821456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-59922292301033814762011-02-17T03:40:58.825-08:002011-02-17T03:40:58.825-08:00Ajai sir
First of First this is Tejas SP-1 in the...Ajai sir<br /><br />First of First this is Tejas SP-1 in the production line.<br /><br />I am sending you 2 good links that give lot of details about JAS 39 Gripen NG/IN development cost.<br /><br />1) http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a76e1b4a5-2302-4d04-99c9-869e490791f9<br /><br />2) http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/articles/communiques/FighterCostFinalJuly06.pdf<br /><br /><br />contd...joydeep ghoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00038225081192821456noreply@blogger.com