tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post985206654344961870..comments2024-03-28T05:22:10.255-07:00Comments on Broadsword by Ajai Shukla - Strategy. Economics. Defence.: The Shadow of XinjiangBroadswordhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-9877498174776619142010-09-11T08:18:57.495-07:002010-09-11T08:18:57.495-07:00Joydeep Ghosh:
I am also of the viewpoint that th...Joydeep Ghosh:<br /><br />I am also of the viewpoint that the reverse engineering skills (technical and motivational) of our public sector OFBs and defense industries are nowhere compared to the Chinese. Spending money on reverse engineering means developing the skills first. <br /><br />1) Well, the sarcasm came with the genes, and was definitely not meant for the writer of the article on the link you posted about the "String of Pearls" thingy.<br /><br />2) About the rest of what you wrote, first distinguish between political refugees and others.<br /><br />3) It seems to me that you are saying what I said, but in many more words...<br />In short you too are saying that we need to take care of our internal challenges first, before we can aspire to take care of integration from what remains de facto another country. <br /><br />So we we are agreeing :) that we need more "Mile sur mera tumahara."Heberiannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-83767642573873440742010-09-11T03:08:33.813-07:002010-09-11T03:08:33.813-07:00@Heberian
finally we agree on atleast one point. ...@Heberian<br /><br />finally we agree on atleast one point. You said "In my opinion, our money can be better spent on reverse engineering/ buying/developing hi tech weapon systems AND in providing basic facilities & education to our hungry millions."<br /><br />Sometime back I said the same thing to Ajai sir about reverse engineering the same way as China does, to which he had replied (if I remember correctly) it was something like this "We first need to have the tech to reverse engineer".<br /><br />Dont Mind I will Like to Say a Few Things About You<br /><br />1. I find your writings a little sarcastic, (eg. what you said about the link i gave you abut 'String of Pearl' strategy). Are you trying to imply you are more knowledgeable and experienced than our 1971 war hero.<br /><br />2. You talk about taking headache of responsibility of people in <br />Gilgit-Baltistan; mind you we have hosted Tibetans, Chakmas, Sri Lankans, Armenians, Somalis, Afgans and more for decades, they are all guests and these people in G-B are our own people. Are you scared of taking responsibility of your own people.<br /><br />3. a) You talk about people from BIMARU and alienated states. Mind you naxal problem is more prevalent in areas where there are more <br />st/sc tribals, we still call the tribals unpadh/giddu/chamar and all that eventhough many have made good use of education, health and job opportunities created.<br /><br />b) We call for bringing alienated people of North Eastern states into mainstream so that they give up arms or call for separate state or country; but we still call them 'Chinki' and dont like to mix with them.<br /><br />How do you think with this kind of attitude we can win over other countries when we cant in over our own people. Think about it.joydeep ghoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00038225081192821456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-4224798464823040932010-09-10T09:02:13.212-07:002010-09-10T09:02:13.212-07:00Joydeep Ghosh:
:) Well, purely from an emotional ...Joydeep Ghosh:<br /><br />:) Well, purely from an emotional point I would say "No" to your question. The "crown" should not be shattered.<br /><br />However, having some exposure to many matters related to what we discuss here.. my personal opinion is pragmatism is the need of the hour, if our nation has to truly achieve its potential.<br /><br />Our J&K and Arunachal is an integral part of India and will remain so. Any attackers on these geographies should be dealt with firmly. Period.No discussions whatsoever about giving up our de facto and de jure land.<br /><br />However, other things need pragmatic considerations.<br /><br />1) We dont have all weather roads in Ladakh yet. Do you think we will ever build even roads in the hypothetical "return of Aksai Chin"?<br />2) Do read up on the situation of the population of Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and Gilgit/Baltistan... In country like Pakistan, where poverty when expressed in % is much worse than India, POK and G/B have the most neglected/ illiterate/ poorest/deprived people.<br /><br />If we take back POK, do we really need to have the headache of taking care of the entire population there, when Bihar and UP other BIMARU states are having conditions that drive people to the Naxal fold?<br /><br />In my opinion, our money can be better spent on reverse engineering/buying/developing hi tech weapon systems AND in providing basic facilities & education to our hungry millions.<br /><br />Only when our economy becomes really strong, do we become really secure. "Hide your strength, and bide your time".. to quote a great Chinese leader :)<br /><br />Trust me, you will not like to live for extended periods in Aksai Chin even during the summer, let alone the winter... <br /><br />As for the great leader you mentioned.. do we really need to talk about how great our netas are?<br /><br />India's "crown" is its people.. not some piece of high altitude desert. Let polish that crown first :)Heberiannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-2310555947634933162010-09-10T02:04:42.643-07:002010-09-10T02:04:42.643-07:00@heberian
Aksai Chin may be wasteland with some p...@heberian<br /><br />Aksai Chin may be wasteland with some patches of grasslands (i suppose). <br /><br />Just one thing, a great Indian leader once said "Kashmir is the crown of India"<br /><br />Could you please tell how a country can part with its crown that to in 3 pieces.joydeep ghoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00038225081192821456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-60487080838964692252010-09-09T21:50:33.420-07:002010-09-09T21:50:33.420-07:00To Joydeep Gosh
Thank you Joydeep, for pointing m...To Joydeep Gosh<br /><br />Thank you Joydeep, for pointing me in the right direction regarding the "The string of Pearls" strategy. For sometime I was thinking it was do with unfairly flooding markets with imitation "Made in China" pearls.<br /><br />Your other points are very interestingly perceptive. If you have had a chance to be upto the Pangong Tso area, you will realise that what lays beyond, i.e., the Aksai Chin area, is quite a wasteland frankly. There is no hidden mineral wealth beneath that may make it of use to us. For China it is of strategic importance in terms of Xinjiang-Tibet connectivity.<br />Arunachal Pradesh is an integral part of India, a "core interest" of India and therefore is non-negotiable as far as India is concerned.<br /><br />Therefore in my simplistic mind, the LAC as it stands today(excluding the daily creeping advance of the PLA), should form the basis for a settlement of our border dispute.<br /><br />Off course, I could be wrong :)Heberiannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-20613660996231515662010-09-09T02:50:51.535-07:002010-09-09T02:50:51.535-07:00@Ajai sir
In heberian you have got a great suppor...@Ajai sir<br /><br />In heberian you have got a great supporter of your views. Some of his assertions are really interesting and noteworthy. <br /><br />Ajai sir you said earlier that India needs to take new approach to solve border issues with China.<br /><br />Now you have said that 'Selig Harrison might be right about Pakistan handing over control (at least of the area adjoining the Xinjiang border) to China.' <br /><br />Please enlighten me as to how India can try to figure out a new approach to solve border issues with China when this country is actually trying to undermine India's rightful claim to J&K.<br />My assertion says<br /><br />1. India needs to forget about getting back the areas under Chinas control. C Uday Baskar once said 'China's policy is that whatever is under its control is not negotiable, and negotiations can happen on what it can grab more'.<br /><br />2. There is no point in shouting about Chinese visa denial to Indian serviceman posted in J&K. <br /><br />Though China officially considers J&K a disputed territory but happily sits on 5800 sq km of Shaksgam valley, not to mention the 38000 sq km of Aksai Chin.<br /><br />3. We are missing a point. China wants its unrestricted access to oil and gas from Central Asia and Middle East through Pakistan. Another route is through Myanmar. <br /><br />So Xinjiang or not China will do whatever it takes to ensure that its supply lines remain open. <br /><br />4. Pakistan will happily play ball room dance with China on J&K b'coz it knows fanning J&K bogey will help to keep its country, battered by Al Qaeda militancy and sectarian violence united. <br /><br />@Heberian <br /><br />Anything you got to say on this. You once asked me about Chinese 'String of Pearls' strategy around India. Take a look at <br />http://sify.com/news/return-of-the-dragon-news-international-ki5aivcedgc.htmljoydeep ghoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00038225081192821456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-37132176093384199972010-09-09T01:04:21.624-07:002010-09-09T01:04:21.624-07:00The way i see it India will always be tied to an e...The way i see it India will always be tied to an equilibrium with pakistan. This is something it cannot avoid irrespective of its development in the economic field. History teaches you this. A little example the current indian landscape was always rich economically and the muslims kept comming to take, steal, whatever you call it. As long as indias border is not secure or at least peacefully settled it will always be bogged down. As to taking kashmir good luck :-))MonkeyBrainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-75452226385511502962010-09-08T21:27:56.499-07:002010-09-08T21:27:56.499-07:00Ajai, unemotional version 1.1 :) Please edit if ...Ajai, unemotional version 1.1 :) Please edit if you will and publish. Thank <br /><br />you.<br /><br /><br />To Anon @ 2244<br /><br />Here is my 25 paise:<br /><br />1) Commenting on where the leanings of ex-servicement lie is funny considering <br /><br />you may not be aware that they have given the best years of their lives living <br /><br />in the most extreme conditions, often sacrificing a family life as many know it, <br /><br />so that all Indians(and foreigners) have the freedom to comment here as they <br /><br />please. An army background does not mean not doing ones current job as best as <br /><br />one can. In this case, it is unbiased reporting. <br /><br />2) R&AW <br />It is true that R&AW has slipped up a few times. But so has the Mossad and the <br /><br />CIA and the KGB and MI6.. You may want to read up on the consequences of the <br /><br />"Curveball" fiasco at the CIA before commenting with so much outrage.<br />It is true that some of the negative aspects of IPS culture and sarkari culture <br /><br />in general, has affected R&AW. <br /><br />However, your rant about R&AW and its operatives (serving/retired)shows how <br /><br />little you know of R&AW's contributions to India's foreign policy objectives. <br /><br />And it is best that way. The best successes of covert services always remain <br /><br />classified for a long time. But failures invariably get publicity... and thats <br /><br />normal too, in all countries except China/Pakistan/ North Korea and the like. <br /><br />India does not lack in covert action capabilities. What we lack is political <br /><br />will.... If you are Indian, you should be thankful for the R&AW & the Indian <br /><br />armed forces guaranteeing you more peace than what would have been otherwise.<br /><br />Suffices to say that you would never make the cut to becoming part of the R&AW <br /><br />or the intelligence service of whatever country you are from :)<br /><br />3) Sensitivities ( Chinese/Indian)<br /><br />Nutcracker situation!!. Military strategy is not as simplistic as you seem to <br /><br />imply. To get a hint of what our official thinking about this is, please recall <br /><br />the statements made about a 2 front war... by the army. Do you think that the <br /><br />planning was as recent as the public statements?<br /><br />WHAT MANY OF THE READERS SEEM TO HAVE MISSED IS THE SENTENCE "It would be <br /><br />strategically prudent to consider alternative Chinese motives, especially its <br /><br />obsession about the spread of radical Islam amongst the disaffected Uighur <br /><br />Muslims of Xinjiang"<br /><br />For crying out loud, it means.. DONT DISCOUNT THE OBVIOUS CHINESE STRATEGY, BUT <br /><br />ALSO THINK OF ALTERNATE POSSIBILITIES WHICH MAY ARISE FROM CHINA'S CONCERN WITH <br /><br />ISLAMIC MILITANCY IN AN AREA OF ITS "CORE INTEREST", i.e., Xinjiang. <br /><br />Do you think that Wahabi Islamic militancy will permit the ISI to distinguish <br /><br />between Kashmiri Ummah and Xinjiang Ummah? The answer is a big NO. It may <br /><br />accomodate the game play for a bit, but in the long run, its about the Ummah <br /><br />everywhere.. which includes not only the Uighurs of Xinjiang, but also the Hui <br /><br />Chinese muslims.....<br /><br />The question Ajai is asking the more discerning reader is " IS THERE SOME WAY <br /><br />INDIA CAN PLAY THIS ANGLE TO FIND COMMON GROUND WITH CHINA?" <br /><br />China's unspoken core interest is internal stability. The leadership there dread <br /><br />the possibilit of anything similar to another Tiananmen square...<br /><br />Chew on that before making simplistic and uneducated rants about the R&AW and <br /><br />the Indian armed forces. Analysis means not just readin the obvious signs, but <br /><br />also understanding or at least trying to figure out motives hidden beneath <br /><br />misleading motives and so on... If it were straightforward, then you could do it <br /><br />:)<br /><br />Thank you very much. Now for a chat with the Old Monk...Heberiannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-68856933852842027852010-09-08T09:37:26.689-07:002010-09-08T09:37:26.689-07:00What sort of country(Dragon as per this article) k...What sort of country(Dragon as per this article) keeps gaining and gaining "in a dilemma" ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-16057562513159530002010-09-08T06:46:28.518-07:002010-09-08T06:46:28.518-07:00India should take back the POK first. Then the sit...India should take back the POK first. Then the situation may be suitable enough to take back Northern Kashmir and then to see whether the Red Dragon automatically withdraws out of its gifted parts of Kashmir or not.Mr. Ranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-46147008800214765632010-09-08T05:33:49.773-07:002010-09-08T05:33:49.773-07:00Anonymous 12:13:
What do you imagine the third la...Anonymous 12:13:<br /><br />What do you imagine the third language would be in that part of the world?<br /><br />Obviously... Bengali!Broadswordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-21411265546513127632010-09-08T01:41:02.384-07:002010-09-08T01:41:02.384-07:00To Anon @ 0004
Good to know there are folks who t...To Anon @ 0004<br /><br />Good to know there are folks who think the way you do. I am thankful for that.<br /><br />I would phrase it slightly differently though..<br /><br />I think its time for us to be focussed on our concerns and dilemmas and "core interests" and have the political balls to do whatever it takes in our interest.<br /><br />:)Heberiannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-67436199080231907212010-09-07T23:43:28.624-07:002010-09-07T23:43:28.624-07:00Ajai, could you throw some light on the two pictur...Ajai, could you throw some light on the two pictures? Are they of the Karakoram Highway? Which is the third language in the signboard?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-37351359630625092502010-09-07T14:23:59.050-07:002010-09-07T14:23:59.050-07:00Going by the Specificity Rule, China is the root c...Going by the Specificity Rule, China is the root cause of all the problems. Pakistan or kashmir itself are not a problem. Chinese cannot be trusted no matter what, the sooner we understand the better.Bluefirenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-7144577461357018902010-09-07T11:34:46.667-07:002010-09-07T11:34:46.667-07:00We are often told that China's actions in Sout...We are often told that China's actions in South Asia are the results of China's dilemmas - be it Arunachal Pradesh, Aksai Chin, Indian ocean or Gilgit-Baltistan. Shouldn't India, by now, design fitting responses to such 'dilemmas'?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-52506338694584743012010-09-07T10:14:54.213-07:002010-09-07T10:14:54.213-07:00Why get swayed by retired RAW officials views whic...Why get swayed by retired RAW officials views which in the service times was always wrong.<br /><br />You have an Army background and should be bothered about " Nutcracker Situation" rather than put all energy on deflection of the issue.<br /><br />Xingiang all right. What about J&K? For China, Xianzaian may be important but for India J&K and Northern area is as important as Zinging for China.<br /><br />Why the hell are you advocating for Chinese sensitivity on Zinxianag while almost undermining Indian sensitivities. You seem to be adopting Nehruvian mold of misinformation and misleading.<br /><br />Not expected... I agree with the first commentetor. simplicity is the best policy and you are spurning the issue like Menon... Do not be so happy with comparision though.<br /><br />Sorry for being harsh and do publish it ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-80983057621880066492010-09-07T08:29:40.116-07:002010-09-07T08:29:40.116-07:00Sir, when is your book being released?Sir, when is your book being released?Bharatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-89315516766189462822010-09-07T06:03:51.836-07:002010-09-07T06:03:51.836-07:00"What better way of meeting China’s concerns ..."What better way of meeting China’s concerns about the inflow of radicalism than allowing PLA units into Gilgit-Baltistan on a DIY (do it yourself) arrangement. Selig Harrison might be right about Pakistan handing over control (at least of the area adjoining the Xinjiang border) to China."<br /><br />I hope on some similar pretexts, Pak allows the Indian Army to enter in to POK and Pak on a do it yourself basis.Mr. Ranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-20969161624533377322010-09-07T05:46:01.648-07:002010-09-07T05:46:01.648-07:00@MPatel, so they hate us do they now? So why then ...@MPatel, so they hate us do they now? So why then are so many of them rushing in to different parts of India- go see goa during the tourist season. Besides I am sure the majority of them being shia they would be welcomed with open arms in Pakistan-not!!!.<br /><br />Back to ajai's blog... some guy from the east before the '62 conflict said. Sometimes a war is neccessary to bring 25 years of peace. Looks like he was right as the chinese bought nearly 50 years of peace on 'their terms'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-27798328748547159742010-09-07T05:20:49.825-07:002010-09-07T05:20:49.825-07:00To Anon@ 0840
I would agree with you in the sense...To Anon@ 0840<br /><br />I would agree with you in the sense that it is better for us to err on the side of caution..<br /><br />The Chinese are known well for using even things that, on the surface appear like mistakes or faux pas, to send a message. It is, USUALLY, by design and never by mistake.<br /><br />Personally, on the basis of my limited experience, I do not, for a second, believe that China used the phrase "Northern Pakistan" by mistake. <br /><br />It most probably was an attempt to calibrate responses from India and Indian public. Whether our netas change or not, our opinion and our "hulla" can still matter ( At least I like to believe that)<br /><br />China likes getting many birds with one stone. So, reducing insecurity on a sensitive border may be the easily visible icing on the cake, but the cake itself is more deep than than the visible icing... The Chinese play for keeps, and have the stomach to to play for the long term.Heberiannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-47017423150496410422010-09-07T05:08:07.558-07:002010-09-07T05:08:07.558-07:00To Anon @ 0925
I believe it is very easy to misco...To Anon @ 0925<br /><br />I believe it is very easy to misconstrue the tenor of this article. <br /><br />As a "reporter/journalist" Ajai treads a thin line between reporting an event/issue/developments as he sees it on the ground; and presenting a partisan view because he is Indian first and ex army officer second. We, in our inimitable manner, tend to take even a neutral view as being anti-India easily. Good reporting is about reporting ground realities. Partisan reporting is about the way Fox News does reporting in the USA... or closer home, the way the Global Times reports in China.<br /><br />This article, in my opinion, does a good job at describing in an "unpartisan" manner, a situation that many of us easily get emotional about. <br /><br />What I carry away from this article is that China does what is good for its national goals (as any self respecting country should, despite or inspite of the approval of other nations). The important question for us proud, chest thumping, desk warrior Indians is, does India do so?<br /><br />Think about that.<br /><br />:)<br /><br />To Anon @ 01027<br /><br />China does not have an "India policy" per se. China simply does whatever it will take to get China to where it believes its rightful place is, i.e., at the head of Asian nations at the least, and as a feared( camoflouaged by respect) world superpower at best. <br /><br />You must remember that Chinese have a very long history and memory and aspirations driven by the fact that all of Asia ( except India, the Mongols for some time [but then, they later became one of the Chinese dynasties], and the Japanese for most of the time) paid tribute to the Chinese emperor ( historically).<br /><br />That is what China aspires again, and they will do anything to get there again if they can. If it means screwing India or Pakistan, they will do it, unless the costs to them, in terms of "face" and money, is huge.<br /><br />Let us not be under the impression that the Chinese respect the Pakistanis, in fact, they look down on Pakistan much more than they look down on any country. But, Pakistan serves a great purpose for China by distracting India... and so the bonhomie and proven nuclear designs..<br /><br />To Brown Panda<br /><br />"The dog that didn't bark in the night" was not some ancient Chinese proverb on which Jiang Zemins '96 speech was based. Its a phrase from a Sherlock Holmes story that is used in our times to describe, roughly, missing out OR ommiting the most important aspect/ job. Contexts can vary :)<br /><br />In the context of Zemins speech, Ajai probably meant to highlight the subtle message the he gave the Pakistani audience when he said " "We should look at the differences or disputes from a long perspective, seeking a just and reasonable settlement through consultations and negotiations while bearing in mind the larger picture. If certain issues cannot be resolved for the time being, they may be shelved temporarily so that they will not affect the normal state-to-state relations."<br /><br />Pakistan expected China to come out in strong support of its stubborn, suicidal intransigience, but what China hinted at, was that Pakistan may be better of shelving issues and following China's lead in developing trade with India. <br /><br />The dog that was expected to bark, did not.. but promoted trade instead!!! What a heartbreak for Pakistan which was expecting their knight on a dragon to come to their aid.....<br /><br />To spankys blog<br /><br />:) Funny that you point out mistakes. Do read your correctional sentence for a bit mate :)<br />I quote " I think would be Pakistan which was handling control to China." Apart from the perfect grammar, "..HANDLING.."??? For Confucious sake man!!!Heberiannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-75287973200446335932010-09-07T05:05:10.687-07:002010-09-07T05:05:10.687-07:00I don't care about what are Chinese concerns w...I don't care about what are Chinese concerns which make them take Pakistani Side and I have no simpathy for them. Chinese with Pakis are playing these games with us, and we need to make sure that we win them.Ravihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10461934576590227388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-69156834581644057422010-09-07T01:17:53.133-07:002010-09-07T01:17:53.133-07:00TYPO in 4th paragraph Ajai, in the following line:...TYPO in 4th paragraph Ajai, in the following line:<br /><br />But Harrison’s bombshell was his assertion that CHINA was “handing over de facto control of [Gilgit-Baltistan] to China.”<br /><br /> I think would be Pakistan which was handling control to China.spanky's Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12479278534002001182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-51175226250783229552010-09-07T00:11:24.867-07:002010-09-07T00:11:24.867-07:00India really has to sort it's issues with pak....India really has to sort it's issues with pak...otherwise they will continue to try to undermine us. They are blocking our access to CARs. And its unlikely that the kashmir's will ever be won over. I have heard that they hate us utterly (even little childrens), even the local police cannot be trusted.MPatelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-84654507330037750762010-09-06T23:39:07.448-07:002010-09-06T23:39:07.448-07:00I am not familiar with Jiang Zemin's "dog...I am not familiar with Jiang Zemin's "dog that didn't bark in the night" speech. Can someone here enlighten me?brown_pandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876767514789447156noreply@blogger.com