tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post8412543892718421834..comments2024-03-14T06:10:14.591-07:00Comments on Broadsword by Ajai Shukla - Strategy. Economics. Defence.: Eurofighter believes price and time parameters for Rafale can’t be metBroadswordhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-54360040030159042642015-05-30T10:33:33.969-07:002015-05-30T10:33:33.969-07:00The Biggest Mistake committed by the then NDA govt...The Biggest Mistake committed by the then NDA govt in 2002 was not to agree to IAF's demand to buy 126 Mirage 2000-Vs .Now they would have been negotiating a new purchase of some more aircraft like the Rafale. The UPA also delayed the process by at least five years. It was obvious that costs would rise and that India wouldnt be able to afford them in such a large number. Even Eurofighter wont be that cheap moreover with four nations involved it would be more of a mess. But with the Rafale purchase they would have to deal with just the French which are more trustworthy than the others. The Best thing for the IAF should be to wait for the LCA MkII and Buy some Rafales along with more Sukhois.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-68086442579583171352015-05-29T19:43:00.441-07:002015-05-29T19:43:00.441-07:00@ Sethz
Let me disregard your patronising tone, a...@ Sethz<br /><br />Let me disregard your patronising tone, and the assumption that I am not aware of the (perfectly simple) fact that a fighter aircraft's price depends upon what is offered as part of that bid. There is also the (again simple) reality that the programme development cost is loaded onto some published prices, whereas others include only the production cost, per unit.<br /><br />Why do you believe this is rocket science?<br /><br />So let's leave the name-calling aside and argue from the belief that the other person might also have read (Wow!) a few papers and publications and official sources.<br /><br />You seem to forget that most publications are biased by a belief. For example, Air Power Australia --- which loves to hate the F-35 --- has a simple, one-point agenda: Australia should lean on America to provide it the F-22, so keep bashing the F-35, which is on Australia's procurement agenda. They believe that if you bad-mouth the F-35 enough, Canberra will change tack!<br /><br />Others have other agendas. I have a clear agenda too: which is to back the indigenous alternative, the Tejas and the AMCA. For me, anything bought in the interim can only be an interim solution, not a permanent one.<br /><br />To illustrate how deceptive are the figures thrown out by these websites, compare the F-35 cost quoted in your "authoritative" website, with Lockheed Martin's officially stated figures, which buyers can hold them to.<br /><br />Your website states that the unit procurement cost of the F-35 (and, revealingly, it does not specify whether this is the A, B or C version) is $115 million. Inexplicably, the programme cost, which should factor in the billions spent on development, is lower than the unit cost at $112.5 million. That's a first!!<br /><br />In contrast, LM's website --- https://www.f35.com/about/fast-facts/cost --- clearly states that: "An F-35A purchased in 2018 and delivered in 2020 will be $85 million, which is the equivalent of $75 million in today’s dollars."<br /><br />Do explain please.<br /><br />Bottom line: we are all working with figures. Your figures are as plagued by the uncertainties in all such assessments. They were not brought down by Moses from the mountain. So if you want to discuss, let's do that. My figures are based on a certain assessment and I'm willing to change that, given a better source of information. But so far, I'm not convinced by the website you recommend.Broadswordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-9690019868628040862015-05-29T09:00:05.634-07:002015-05-29T09:00:05.634-07:00First of all let us agree to discuss pricing of th...First of all let us agree to discuss pricing of the Rafale C for now. Since there are some Rafale B's in the mix on the Indian deal which could skew the pricing discussion, lets keep them aside for now. <br /><br />@ Shukla, you have demonstrated again that you understand nothing about military fighter aircraft pricing mechanisms. I would ask you to go and read up before you write about this the next time and here's where you could start :<br /> - http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/articles/communiques/FighterCostFinalJuly06.pdf<br /><br />@ Buena - the figure you quoted from the French budget document are the "Unit Procurement Cost" figures not fly away figures on export orders and that could very well vary from order to order based on economic, political and configuration of systems on order. Also please bear in mind that the figures on the French Govt. document includes 20% VAT tax which will not be applicable on the Indian order. So the ex-VAT "Unit Procurement Cost" for a Rafale C works out to ~ 59.2 M€ or ~ USD $ 65M. <br /><br />If you add ~20% towards support equipment and service you end up at USD $ 78M. Add another 20% for weapons systems, Recce pods etc. and you end up somewhere around USD $ 93.6M or so.<br />That is not to say that that is the price that the French will offer the Rafale C at to the Indians.<br /><br />Hope this post helps to bring some sanity to the discussion on cost figures. Folks are just so callous when they throw out cost numbers. It confuses the heck out of everyone and creates a hell lot of confusion.Sethzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03387535347664984733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-46576838547008168782015-05-29T04:59:24.697-07:002015-05-29T04:59:24.697-07:00"However, Eurofighter estimates the Rafale’s ..."However, Eurofighter estimates the Rafale’s current flyaway price to be at least US $150 million, a figure supported by public information on Armee de l’Aire (as the French air force is called) purchases."<br /><br />It's Armée de l'Air. <br />And for your information, here are the official public figures given by the French Senate:<br />Rafale B: 74 M€<br />Rafale C: 68,8 M€<br />Rafale M: 79 M€<br />http://www.senat.fr/rap/a13-158-8/a13-158-814.html<br /><br />...Buenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12138828606461291356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-59559730290548868052015-05-28T22:44:47.121-07:002015-05-28T22:44:47.121-07:00eurofighter team... wishful dream...eurofighter team... wishful dream...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-79909687872849203532015-05-28T21:22:30.791-07:002015-05-28T21:22:30.791-07:00200 million a piece for Rafale but what about Typh...200 million a piece for Rafale but what about Typhoon. ? Still the price of Rafale is going to be negotiated. France has to keep the big opportunity of 90 more they cannot loose. Along with it weapons for its subsidiaries like Thales Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com