tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post5621451668288925568..comments2024-03-14T06:10:14.591-07:00Comments on Broadsword by Ajai Shukla - Strategy. Economics. Defence.: US high-tech arms to India stumble on safeguardsBroadswordhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-33681540861785729562014-01-14T02:31:10.087-08:002014-01-14T02:31:10.087-08:00While Cyber Security and Information Security (CS ...While Cyber Security and Information Security (CS and IS) is all set to be introduced as a subject in higher and secondary education in the country, the government plans to hire around 5,000 information security experts who would impart training to create a larger dependable force of cyber experts across the country, top Government sources said.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-49411557646930693362010-05-26T14:04:51.809-07:002010-05-26T14:04:51.809-07:00It is NOT a buyer's job to study seller's ...It is NOT a buyer's job to study seller's laws, regulations and treaties ESPECIALLY when the platforms involved are MERE tactical equipment.<br /><br />It is the supplier's job to be aware of and EXPLICITLY STATE their OWN country's laws, permissions and pre-requisite agreements required before hawking their wares.<br /><br />India agreed to buy the platforms for n-deal but NOT to be forced into signing away its sovereignity disguised into treaties(CISMOA, EUM.....). If they can't sell without CISMOA then should quote price minus cost of cismoa-covered-equipment OR we can reject to buy those platforms altogether.<br /><br />Agreed that these sovereignity-surrendering treaties like cismoa were not specifically designed for india but who says they only want to tie our hands only but not of other nations too ????Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-72588183212192173782010-05-26T08:25:11.942-07:002010-05-26T08:25:11.942-07:00@joydeep ghosh
Thanks for your salute. As long as...@joydeep ghosh<br /><br />Thanks for your salute. As long as no action is being performed here, may i suggest none of us deserve one.<br /><br />Regarding price-Rest assured that $1.059 Billion is the exact amount being forked out by India for the 6 C-130J's. I would not have given you the number if i was not 100% sure. <br /><br />@Ajai Ji-I agree that unit costs typically are 50% of the platform costs. The math still does not work out. Here's why<br /><br />6 C-130J's @62 M= 370M<br />10 Year support @37M/year=370M<br /><br />Adding this up we get 740M and we are paying 1059M, a difference of 319 M. And does anyone in the world pay a 10 year servicing cost up-front with the aircraft? NO.<br /><br />I do not agree that the aircraft for Canada would cost less than Indian aircraft. The set-up costs would differ, but what exactly are we talking about the set-up here. Simulators-IAF is not gonna buy simulators for operating a 4 propeller transport plane. Any IAF pilot can second me here. Infrastructure, yes. But are we talking air-conditioned hangars here? Haha. No. We are probably talking about 2-3 hangars and related minimal set-up at Ghaziabad. We are not planning to assemble/manufacture the plane here. Training-yes, probably 2 sets (6+6) of IAF transport pilots would be trained by Lockheed for month or two-Would that be very expensive-No, as long as IAF isn't sending rookie pilots over. You would need to buy tooling and perishables (spares). A turbo-shaft engine isn't difficult (or complicated) to service. Minimal costs all the way. <br /><br />P.S: Let me state here that a typical "steady state" aircraft (Steady state denotes an aircraft which has typically more than 500+ examples throughout the globe and is being produced currently) costs less than 10% of its cost price to maintain each year IF THE MAINTENANCE IS TOTALLY OUTSOURCED TO THE MANUFACTURER. Which is not the case given the extensive aircraft manitenance capability IAF has. We would at most, be buying spares and performing all maintenance ourselves.<br /><br />Another data point: UAE Air Force bought 12 C-130J's in late 2009 for $1.3 Billion. Now, UAE is also a first time customer for the C-130J and they approx paid HALF of what India paid a year later (assuming a 6% y-o-y price escalation for the C-130J). And UAE typically signs full aircraft maintenance deals with the aircraft manufacturer. <br /><br />Who the heck cares right? As long as the working Indian slugs his you-know-what to pay taxes which are then mis-appropiated by the politicians and middlemen. <br /><br />As i said before- It happens only in India!!! Long live greased palms and public sector inefficiency to come up with any weapons platforms!!!!<br /><br />TatsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-75789586913926037202010-05-26T08:03:08.974-07:002010-05-26T08:03:08.974-07:00There are three misleading specious sophist argume...There are three misleading specious sophist arguments here.<br />(1) These aircrafts are loaded with sensitive technologies that no other nation possesses.<br />(2) These agreements are signed by everyone and the technologies shared by the US. What is the status of those nations that share? Are they NATO allies/states with US bases/vassal states.<br />(3) There is nothing in these agreements that may be construed suspicious or dangerous for India - it is all above board and upfront.<br /> How far it is from the truth and actuality remains to be seen.<br />Time will tell.<br />And that does not mean a "Yea" for the agreements - On the contrary it means a resounding "Nay".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-22888621547010875172010-05-26T07:47:11.167-07:002010-05-26T07:47:11.167-07:00Ajai Ji,
US will assuredly put a Trojan Horse and ...Ajai Ji,<br />US will assuredly put a Trojan Horse and Indians will not be able to detect them. That is a certainty. They will put them in areas that are inaccessible. Another thing, I am not too sure the Canadians when purchasing C-17's and other Boeing aircrafts do not opt for training, spare parts, etc. I honestly believe that these prices are high and unique to India.<br />The comments of all authors are extremely interesting. There are very few that mention the gradual stranglehold that the US is exercising - similar to a vassal state without the privileges of an ally.<br />The impact of these patterns of business and related politics should be clear to all and sundry. USA is not anymore the land of its Bill of Rights and founding constitution but those that are willing to pick any reason for creating conflict and keep the world busy.<br />These very agreements can be used to effectively create tensions leading to wars on pretexts of non-compliance.<br />The more agreements we sign the more vulnerable we become as a nation. <br />Plz do not take it as trivial.<br />I hope you print what I write.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-64689657503518868782010-05-26T06:15:46.929-07:002010-05-26T06:15:46.929-07:00Hmm.. This is indeed an interesting “introductory”...Hmm.. This is indeed an interesting “introductory” article. It was always along the lines one fears in trying to be “ally” of US: one may just land up becoming a “slave” because if in time of crisis the US strategic community decides that India should not be aggressive it simply has to sabotage the “high tech” equipment by jamming it. There have a few press reports of such occurances in the past. Unfortunately the devil always lies in the details. So if one was thinking of shopping in the US supermarket to become a major power.. think again.. one may just land up becoming a US surrogate ,for eg. Look at the strategic disaster lollipop PM has done in with respect to our reaction (or rather a complete lack of it) to 26/11, angering Iran, projecting Pakistan as a must-become friend (“or else we cannot become a major power”), slack modernisation process, lack of R&D (its allowance is much below required to be a major power), and most importantly complete lack of strategic thinking or what should I say attitude”. Returning to the immediate context of signing the confidentiality agreement, surely your article is only an introduction to the issue. I think this issue needs to be spelt out in a very detailed manner to bring out the merits of signing vs. the pitfalls.Sachin Khandelwalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-82113834494583485302010-05-26T05:54:16.380-07:002010-05-26T05:54:16.380-07:00Its is extremely frustrating to see where we lie i...Its is extremely frustrating to see where we lie in terms of defence capabilities. So how many more years of suffering this indignity to be on mercy of others for systems that we can use to defend ourselves and deter others?Ravihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10461934576590227388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-33750251275942474792010-05-26T05:21:24.637-07:002010-05-26T05:21:24.637-07:00Manohar Thyagaraj, explanation that CISMOA and BEC...Manohar Thyagaraj, explanation that CISMOA and BECA is “common for all countries that receive US high technology and are not unique to India” is partially correct. It is only applicable to those countries that are under the US security and nuclear umbrella i.e. about 30 odd countries as of now. <br />In addition, there are countries like Pakistan which is a MNNA ( Major Non NATO Ally). It gives USA the same rights over Pakistan as it has with countries under the American military umbrella. These special rights that USA enjoys is because it is responsible for their security and thus enforces its own obligations and those of its allies through such agreements. <br />However India is not under the security umbrella of the US. It is a strategic partner. Thus it is under no obligation to follow whatever the US demands. A strategic partnership is built on the principle of equality. Thus, a strategic partner is to be treated as an equal, at least on paper. <br />Signing of the CISMOA and EUA is discriminatory. Why should our radio sets interoperate with US equipments and why should we manage our frequency spectrum as dictated by the US? The US can have the best encryption devices under the sun but our SAG will not be impressed. What we do with the equipment for which we have paid the full price is our business. The right of ownership has to be transferred in full. It will be humiliating to allow US personal to inspect our equipment at our military bases. <br />If the US delivers the P8I without crucial electronics for what ever reasons it may have than India should pay a lot less than the full version price.Nayanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122614027098425190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-47611496103822568142010-05-26T04:29:19.672-07:002010-05-26T04:29:19.672-07:00Sandeep:
I had done the story a couple of months ...Sandeep:<br /><br />I had done the story a couple of months ago, when the first flight had taken place. Go back and read it in the archives.<br /><br />This flight was not the first flight... it was the 20th or so! This was the "tamasha" inauguration.<br /><br />General Point regarding India paying more for systems:<br /><br />I'm afraid you can't compare a deal that the Canadians do with another that India does for the C-130J. The cost of the platform, typically, is just 50% of the deal cost. Then there are simulator facilities, spares backups, initial training costs, in-service support, spares inventories, etc etc etc.<br /><br />Plz compare apples with apples, not with oranges.<br /><br />The question of Trojans:<br /><br />Of course, theoretically, one could have a Trojan in any system. But I think that any foreign company would be VERY careful about putting a Trojan into any system that India is buying. We have good ways of detecting Trojans and, if a Trojan is ever detected in an Indian platform, that is the end of the Indian arms relationship.<br /><br />You want to risk that?Broadswordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-73246600306266310772010-05-26T02:31:19.375-07:002010-05-26T02:31:19.375-07:00Really a good point ajai,
india know US will not ...Really a good point ajai, <br />india know US will not supply key technologies without signing in these agreements,india is becoming MR.Late in each and every thing to take decisions . making every thing late is not a proudable one .NJShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03983153155305295119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-87787329661390773662010-05-26T01:57:12.575-07:002010-05-26T01:57:12.575-07:00I don't know but i think its better for india ...I don't know but i think its better for india to do what paks do. Look at them they are getting 8/9 P-3C (completely refurbished...almost new), with the latest gadgets all for 900 million. Money seems to have gone to the heads of indians. <br /><br />Is there any point in spending money on these systems anyway? Russia has been very good to india but indians give it no loylaty and are now looking for new masters....but these new masters prefer to treat you as third class.Chada Singhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-4742610166026638612010-05-26T01:13:39.028-07:002010-05-26T01:13:39.028-07:00Ajai Sir ! heard nothing regarding LCH on your blo...Ajai Sir ! heard nothing regarding LCH on your blogsandeephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02779633239170025090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-70765812497974337642010-05-26T00:42:06.693-07:002010-05-26T00:42:06.693-07:00Saw a report by Shiv Aroor on HT.
that the Army ch...Saw a report by Shiv Aroor on HT.<br />that the Army chief had questioned<br />the logic of buying weapons from the USA . it also highlighted that some radars bought from Raytheon are not functioning due to lack of maintenance support by that company.Rafalenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-91495278094029036062010-05-26T00:08:07.542-07:002010-05-26T00:08:07.542-07:00Another great argument in favor of greater efforts...Another great argument in favor of greater efforts towards indigenous product development and manufacturing.<br /><br />Or at the very least, an argument in favor of staying far away from US equipment. First you pay a kings ransom in dollars to get these items, then you pay a prince's ransom in self respect to keep these functioning, then you devote half of your manpower to make sure that the electronics are not happily transmitting all of your data to friendly american receivers.<br /><br />This should be a good wakeup call for everybody in power who make indigenous products jump through a thousand hoops before finally rejecting the system as being not capable as a F-22.<br /><br />You have to learn to walk before you can sprint. Unfortunately the argument being used is, "no point reinventing the wheel". Well walking and running aren't exactly the latest and greatest human achievement, people have been walking and running since at least a million years, but everyone still has to learn walking and then graduate to running. Nobody says, "no use learning to walk, its been done before".<br /><br />We aim to be an "Aerospace Power", a "Blue Water Navy", a "Super Power" etc etc. Now how many Super Power status countries have gotten there with imported weapons and fascination with brochures?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-41625653609006421932010-05-25T23:35:33.792-07:002010-05-25T23:35:33.792-07:00As far as I know the LSA is to give logistics supp...As far as I know the LSA is to give logistics support to the US military. The CISMOA is to promote interoperatbility and communications at a tactical level with the US systems.<br /><br />Since India neither is going to support US campaigns in theaters close to India or is it going to fight alongside the US, why should be sign these arrangements and give signals to the contrary to our friends and foes alike ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-20578022559687265492010-05-25T21:03:48.279-07:002010-05-25T21:03:48.279-07:00@anonymous 22.55
By the Way, do you have any prob...@anonymous 22.55<br /><br />By the Way, do you have any problem if I call you Tathagat<br /><br />Though you are right about the MAD on P8I as well as 12 AN/TPQ-37, but<br />you said <br /><br />'India bought 6 C-130J for $1.059 Billion in 2008.'<br /><br />its actually $962 million though still very high price<br /><br />@ Ajai sir<br /><br />can you pls clarify on this price difference, between Indian, US and Canadian planesjoydeep ghoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00038225081192821456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-42918743740621257132010-05-25T20:48:19.929-07:002010-05-25T20:48:19.929-07:00Anonymous 22:55
I salute you, but pls can you pt ...Anonymous 22:55<br /><br />I salute you, but pls can you pt these words in the ears of North Blockjoydeep ghoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00038225081192821456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-8493069158571255702010-05-25T19:26:57.396-07:002010-05-25T19:26:57.396-07:00Dear Ajay,
Was wondering if the Indian government...Dear Ajay,<br /><br />Was wondering if the Indian government has clearly stated the clauses that are not in line with our expectations? <br /><br />Personal opinion: In a way, this openness of the US (about clarifying sensitive issues before finalizing deals) is something I appreciate and it is rather evident even in business deals with Americans whereby suppliers and procurement folks always like to “clarify” deliverables before proceeding. <br /><br />However, I foresee frustration and friction between US and us thanks to the differing negotiation styles (since culturally, we tend not to bring up sensitive issues, considering it impolite to offend partners) however, in business, from the little experience I have had, I believe it is best to have as much clarity and transparency as possible before signing on the dotted lineUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10033238415007363986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-60312680256986404772010-05-25T16:52:17.465-07:002010-05-25T16:52:17.465-07:00Shuklaji, what exactly are India's reservation...Shuklaji, what exactly are India's reservations with the agreements? What specific clauses? How have others dealt with it? Is it uniform for everyone? Your article doesn't make this very clear ...<br /><br />What guarantees that the downgraded equipment currently being supplied (on the P8I say) doesn't have Trojans or other spy stuff on it already?Brownian Motionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17692003963430593812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-7535680128075078462010-05-25T16:49:50.182-07:002010-05-25T16:49:50.182-07:00I'm not sure I understand fully. How do we kno...I'm not sure I understand fully. How do we know that the downgraded equipment that the P8I will now come with doesn't have Trojans or other shady spyware stuff on it? <br /><br />@ Joydeep ghosh - are you serious that S. Korea doesn't have hostile countries around?<br /><br />Exactly what are India's reservations with these agreements? Shuklaji, your article doesn't actually make that clear...Brownian Motionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17692003963430593812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-20862622841505348512010-05-25T15:34:35.806-07:002010-05-25T15:34:35.806-07:00Just sign it. We know you want it. Just sing it.Just sign it. We know you want it. Just sing it.Humbumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-65774394591436765142010-05-25T12:34:25.755-07:002010-05-25T12:34:25.755-07:00Instead of signing such agreements with anyone, In...Instead of signing such agreements with anyone, India should be in a position either to go for indigenous R&D or go for Tejas/FGFA type of cooperative developments.Ranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-81580088814447494082010-05-25T10:25:54.162-07:002010-05-25T10:25:54.162-07:00Let me take a step back. In 2002, India purchased ...Let me take a step back. In 2002, India purchased the first major US platform-12 AN/TPQ-37 weapon locating radars. Circa 2010, the Army Chief has warned that 2/3rd of the 12 radars are down at any given time due to Raytheon (the manufacturer) support issues. Keep in mind that these radars are not very high end equipment.<br /><br />Circa 2010, we are being asked to sign end-user agreements and a whole lot of other commitments (CISMOA, BECA)for P-8I & C-130J platforms AFTER going through the FMS (Foreign Military Sales) route. Firstly, do you know what FMS is and how it hits India? FMS is an Indian govt order to the American Govt. The American Govt then assigns the order to any supplier it deems fit. Great scheme, right. Knock Knock!!! Wake up. The price you pay is MUCH MUCH more than those in the free market. <br /><br />Case in point-the C-130J Super Hercules being purchased. Wikipedia gives the C-130J 2008 (year in which India placed the order) Flyaway cost at $62 Million. Further proof of cost:Canada signed a 16 C-130J deal for $1.4 Billion in 2008. India bought 6 C-130J for $1.059 Billion in 2008. Why did India buy the same aircraft at more than double the price? And please do not tell me that Indian C-130J's are better equipped. Canadian C-130J's are much more highly equipped. Btw-to put this into perspective, India paid the price of a C-17 ( a 4 jet 70 Ton heavy transport aircraft @$ 200M/aircraft) for a C-130J ( a 4 propeller 12-15 Ton aircraft which the rest of the world buys at $60-70M but India buys @$190M). Ajai Ji-Your comments on this purchase and whether you feel India should have bought the C-130J at a C-17 price? <br /><br />And what happens when we face the AN/TPQ 37 issues after paying Maruti Swift price for a Maruti 800? Here's the best part-India cannot hold anyone to account (see the An/TPQ-37 public domain announcement by the Army chief). India can at best ask the US Government to provide spares/services, which the US Govt would pass on to the vendor (Boeing) and we can buy services/spares at a "fill-in-the blank" price. Who fills in the blank? Boeing/Raytheon. India can "protest" that the price is very high, but then, what good has Indian "protests" come to historically is left to your judgement.<br /><br />Great, isn't it!!!! No, things are not that gray, you sign all papers and you get "co-operation". Stuff gets serviced at low rates and promptly. Kind of like what Canada, Britain & Australia get today. <br /><br />Oh yes-I almost forgot the P-8I, Cost to India-$220 M/aircraft for a total of $2.1 B for 8 aircraft. Cost to US is approx $150M/aircraft (Check up the wikipedia & search on google). And the icing on the cake (this is not 100% confirmed as of now, though) Indian aircraft won't come with MAD (Magentic Anomaly Detector) that the US planes would come with. It would be a "scaled-down" version of the US version.<br /><br />Russian problems like delays in technology transfer (T-90), quality issues (Mig 21 spares) and faulty cost estimations (Gorshkov) probably sound sweeter now. <br /><br />It happens only in India!!! Long live greased palms and public sector inefficiency to come up with any weapons platforms!!!!<br /><br />TatsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-67295010976766723762010-05-25T09:17:32.719-07:002010-05-25T09:17:32.719-07:00Why did India buy these hi-tech stuff if we were n...Why did India buy these hi-tech stuff if we were not ready to sign these safe-guards? <br /><br />Seems like someone was making a lot of money on these deals. Shri Antony's brain or lack of it gets a raw deal for everything related to defence. Hail Antony.AKhttp://ak47.yahoo.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-77238095505855116892010-05-25T07:59:28.980-07:002010-05-25T07:59:28.980-07:00Did Pakistan sign this contract with the US?
Then...Did Pakistan sign this contract with the US?<br /><br />Then how did Pakistan (allegedly)provide an F-16 to China for reverse engineering?<br /><br />On a separate topic, how can it be ensured that these systems dont come with Trojan horses? If Indian capabilities wont be able to detect it, it will certainly have to use outside help ( say Israel ) to identify such "bugs". Such an agreement will make that impossible. Thats possibly a reason why its being pushed by them.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04976981883648604978noreply@blogger.com