tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post3593496531520723037..comments2024-03-14T06:10:14.591-07:00Comments on Broadsword by Ajai Shukla - Strategy. Economics. Defence.: Where is India’s light fighter?Broadswordhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-73328264333848281132012-02-10T11:41:13.142-08:002012-02-10T11:41:13.142-08:00Simple facts!
1. A holistic picture pints to Indi...Simple facts!<br /><br />1. A holistic picture pints to India's present need to build up jet fighter manufacturing base for LCA & MCA with civvi spin-off. <br /><br />2. Preedator drone action in next door Af-Pak is prima facie evidence of what lies ahead for the fighter jet industry. Pilotless, remote, highly invisible and flexible small planes!<br /><br />Rafale's priviate 'frenchie' maker has been kept afloat 'frenchie style'; this is a do or die deal for them. So best-of-class terms are on the table. On an .. hehe ... 'EMI' yearly payment plan, this deal costs less than a $ Billion; less than Rs. 4500 Cr.<br />Peanuts re: Govt. of India's present and future financials. <br /><br />Add all the sops, technology transfer, soft loans, trips, aid program's, french taxpayer input into the project etc. The French taxpayer is the one who whould be concerned about optimal Return-on-Investment.<br /><br />It's a 'cheap-&-best' deal !Chotta Betaalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07155498446365846091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-21241411774950833382012-02-09T14:01:15.075-08:002012-02-09T14:01:15.075-08:00Lighter and smaller fighters are not necessarily s...Lighter and smaller fighters are not necessarily stealthier. Rafale's Radar Cross Section is lower than the F-16 and Mirage 2000 despite being larger in dimensions and heavier. An extreme case is the mammoth B-2 bomber that barely registers on radar screens. You're wrong on this.<br /><br />What data do you have to support your argument that the Rafale "will almost always lose in a contest with three modern light fighters"? Eurofighter Typhoons and Su-27/30s have routinely demonstrated their ability to beat F-16s and Mirage2000s in close air as well as BVR combat. Which three light fighters were you referring to?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-77317844009418561812012-02-09T09:24:54.480-08:002012-02-09T09:24:54.480-08:00There has been a huge paradigm shift from the time...There has been a huge paradigm shift from the time that Mig-21 was first envisaged to be replaced to the time when Rafale has been finalized. With inclusion of Rafale none should be able to say that this or that situation could not be encountered timely because no suitable aircraft was available to cater for such condition.<br /><br />Rafale and Tejas series are entirely in different slots and none of them can block the deal or development of the other. They have to be grown/procured in parallel.Mr. Ranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-13957110442496216352012-02-09T02:30:50.101-08:002012-02-09T02:30:50.101-08:00Indian Navy should be given the charge of both LCA...Indian Navy should be given the charge of both LCA and AMCA, since its the only force which is capable of achieving the task, and more importantly, it is the Navy which will carry out our Foreign Policy needs with these aircraft in the high seas! <br /><br />They have achieved it with a range of world class ships, as well as the K series of missiles.<br /><br />Both the IA and IAF are incapable intellectually to assist development of world class platforms in India, they can only shop- they cant contribute in the 'make'!Almightynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-35162517651665707532012-02-08T20:20:22.910-08:002012-02-08T20:20:22.910-08:00............picked up from another forum & re ...............picked up from another forum & re posted here for Mr Shukla's (& everyone else's consideration. It's a different take and a different point of view, and though contradictory to Broadsword, definitely not without some weight. I hope Broadsword prints it & does not 'moderate' it)<br />An interesting article which is riddled with inconsistencies.<br /><br />"........Light fighters are affordable, and cheaper to buy and to fly. Being smaller, they are inherently more stealthy, less observable on enemy radars."<br /><br />This statement is classic deception and a smokescreen. Starting with an incorrect assumption which is not backed by evidence, the author attempts to beat the IAF's logic. <br /><br />"........Even though the Rafale is a powerful, high-quality brute of a combat machine, it will almost always lose in a contest with three modern light fighters."<br /><br />Again, no evidence but rhetoric. Is the author suggesting that we buy 378 F-16's instead of 126 Rafales? No, he stops short of making this point but gives a weak argument that is easily shot down but takes the issue away.<br /><br />"........That is why the USAF and the Israeli air forces have large fleets of single-engine F-16 fighters."<br /><br />US has not inducted a single new F-16 in its inventory for the last 7 years. Yes it has upgraded its existing fleet. And yes, in the same manner, IAF has upgraded its Jaguars, MiG21's. MiG-27s and is upgrading its M-2000 and MiG-29 ac. But US wants us to buy the light weight fighter for delivery in 2015 onwards and for which the production will continue well into the 2020's. Clearly it doesn't make sense. I would like to say that F-16 is the ultimate toy that is too small, with a small range and payload capability that will always be a problem for IAF.<br /><br />Point for Tejas is well taken. Nobody in his right mind will say that indigenisation is not important. However, IAF has always supported the DRDO but has been consistently let down over the years. Has the IAF objected to grant of more funds for Tejas? IAF will accept Tejas when it is ready and is waiting for it with open arms.<br /><br /> "........This might gladden the heart of a young fighter pilot, just as a fleet of Ferraris would gladden the heart of a college-going youngster, even if his commute were two kilometres through crowded traffic. But it is worrisome to a defence planner who seeks a balanced force for performing a multitude of tasks economically."<br /><br />I take strong exception to this statement. This is deplorable and smacks of arrogance. IAF senior establishment are not a bunch of college going students but visionaries with a clear idea about the strategic requirements as the fight for natural resources picks up steam in the coming decades. For those who love to talk economics, the Indian defence budget has always been consistently less than 3% of GDP. Compare this with the Chinese. 2010 was $120 billion. As we finally confront our worst fears of a two front war, it will be a Rafale class of aircraft and not a light weight fighter that will deliver. <br /><br />".........But a far smaller expenditure on the Indian aerospace establishment, and the squeezing of key technologies from Dassault and Thales during contract negotiations, will ensure that the Rafale is the last fighter that India buys abroad."<br /><br />GTRE is developing an engine for the last two decades and are atleast a decade away from an operational engine. A laudable thought but I am not sure that it will be achievable without sweeping reforms. The government has done a wonderful job with the offset clause. That will provide a real kick start to the defence sector.<br /><br />Lastly, privatise DRDO and HAL. Bitter pill. I will make it sweet, bring some competition for them like it was done for BSNL in telecom. <br /><br />Hopefully, it reaches the original author.<br /><br />By an Air Force Test PilotAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-29518055023445135332012-02-08T15:54:43.696-08:002012-02-08T15:54:43.696-08:00Colonel sir, thanks for this timely article! one ...Colonel sir, thanks for this timely article! one cannot stress enough the importance of self reliance. This euphoria of buying Rafale is shortlived. I don't deny that its a wonderful aircraft that meets our needs. One has to hope that nobody gets caught taking kickbacks or the french doesn't armtwist us for money. Bottomline is our country will be at the mercy of someone else. Also 20bn is a lot of money to earn as a country in the first place. Even if 10bn comes back, still it is a lot of money. LCA may or may not match the number of Rafales we are buying. But the ability to make even 1 plane has a significant impact on future generations. I hope ADA keeps up the good work and completes this project as a success, even if HAL is not fully capable of productionising.Ramuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02868001675898406193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-83228629837055724832012-02-08T12:12:51.570-08:002012-02-08T12:12:51.570-08:00GOOD ANALYSIS MR SHUKLA AND THANKS FOR ELABORATING...GOOD ANALYSIS MR SHUKLA AND THANKS FOR ELABORATING THE USEFUL NESS OF SINGLE ENGINE AIRCRART DO NOT WORRY THE LCA HAS NOWHERE TO GO BUT JOIN IAF AND I-NAVY POOR THING WILL BE THERE FOR YOU AND OTHERS TO TAKE SHOTS AT IT. LIKE PAINT JOB IS SHODDY THE TILE WILL FALL OFF YHEA WELCOME.RATnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-56040641730898640142012-02-08T10:54:32.490-08:002012-02-08T10:54:32.490-08:00It's in the making... like a fledging bird... ...It's in the making... like a fledging bird... and hope the cukoo's of today's world... hasn't... laid its eggs in its nest... if (cukoo)litening II's... III's... IV's... won't eat up its share of food... else will... choke it... starve it... and kill it... don't have to say... how cunning... powerful... selfish... self centered... are thses cukoos...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-67117920918076520882012-02-08T09:03:17.881-08:002012-02-08T09:03:17.881-08:00Yes I also hope that Rafale is the last fighter ot...Yes I also hope that Rafale is the last fighter other than the FGFA that India buys abroad. I have absolutely no quarrel with encouraging an accelerated manufacturing and delivery schedule for the LCA. The IAF will indeed place more orders in due course. What puzzles me is your sudden love for the LCA and this pathological dislike for the Rafale and its cost. It is certainly very expensive but so is the F-35 that you were rooting for just a few days ago. In the meantime the Pentagon has clarified that it never offered the F-35 to India but was ready to give information in case India requested it. As the world knows the American Senate is extremely upset about the rising costs of the F-22 and the F-35 and more so the delays in the F-35 joining the service with the US and other partner countries. Let me also tell you that the world has changed since the IAF first began the search for the replacement for its MiG-21 fleet which incidentally had grown to nearly 50% of the total because India was simply not able to buy the then Western fighters. Let me remind you that before 2001-02 when the Indian economy actually began showing a steady rise and only after the 1998 Nuclear tests that the West has started taking India a bit more seriously. Even today, notwithstanding the American desire to rope in India as a balancer for an increasingly aggressive China, the US is still not ready to give everything India wants. By delivering the final batch of 18 F-16 to Pakistan the US has appeased Pakistan and sent a clear signal to India that Pakistan will always remain a US ally. Finally, which fighter or air power expert told you that three F-16s will overpower a Rafale?<br />This is childish. No wonder you are again getting a bit excited with this subject. Even with 34 sqns the IAF can take care of the country's current threats provided it maintains a high serviceability and utilization rate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-19423527164628096862012-02-08T08:57:34.067-08:002012-02-08T08:57:34.067-08:00Just one tiny problem with you article... what, in...Just one tiny problem with you article... what, in your mind, is a good example of a "light fighter" India should have procured as an alternative to the Rafale?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-18130709633097220372012-02-08T06:43:31.320-08:002012-02-08T06:43:31.320-08:00I only want you Ajay Sir to keep on covering lates...I only want you Ajay Sir to keep on covering latest LCA news and pressuring the government to invest in local technology rather than costly buys.I agree with your say.<br /><br />GOD Bless Tejas<br />GOD Bless INDIApravinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07516962024584758529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-55612574952971341432012-02-08T05:54:38.222-08:002012-02-08T05:54:38.222-08:00excellent article Ajai Sir. I dont remember any co...excellent article Ajai Sir. I dont remember any country becoming a superpower by buying away arms from other countries. Hope govt provides extra emphasis on home grown products and make Tejas a reality.Harihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00257672067087720776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-66540852732735298162012-02-08T04:59:38.442-08:002012-02-08T04:59:38.442-08:00Throw more good money after bad?! The MoD, the DRD...Throw more good money after bad?! The MoD, the DRDO, and HAL are all incompetent and incapable given empirical experience, the bureaucratic morass, and the self-serving bloated mafia this has become.<br />LCA technology is irrelevant and obsolete 30 years later. What has changed now that will make this bird fly, its taken lives of many test pilots and remains nowhere near anywhere, forget about making an engine entirely! <br />From a country that can't make a rifle, and a history of failures from a trainer to the Marut, this is wishful thinking not based on real project management or user requirement but on patriotic bravado. Happy landings they say for a reason!Indiaspinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12843765835493797365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-55710543746052100252012-02-07T20:34:10.064-08:002012-02-07T20:34:10.064-08:00Even after seeing how the French arm-twisted us in...Even after seeing how the French arm-twisted us in the exorbitantly priced deal to upgrade our Mirage fighters, it is shocking to see people wanting to buy used fighters from UAE and to get them ungraded. Why the unholy desire to spend the taxpayers' money to the French. They are not being generous in any way to us in any of the deals that India has struck with them. They demand their pound of flesh and the babooos willingly sign away the cheques.<br /><br />Have the French helped in fast-tracking the production of the Scorpene submarines. How much TOT have they given to productionise the subs at Mazagon docks? Have they really expedited the process to upgrade the performance of the Kaveri engine under the JV? If the JV is not up and running, is it because the French are not willing part with cutting-edge technology? Anyway shich country is going to part with technology they have acquired with R&D which would have consumed a lot of their taxpayers' money?<br /><br />If GOI is not willing to spend on indigenous R&D in the aeronautical field, then we might as well stay as screwdriver tecnicians and assemblers of foreign products and labelling them as Made in India.<br /><br />As the good colonel said a lot of money needs to be allocated for R&D if India is to produce world class products. <br /><br />The LCA Tejas programme needs to be put on a war footing in order to expedite its induction into the IAF. The MMRCA deal is just a stop-gap measure to augment the depleting strength of the IAF. The IAF still needs light interceptors or mult role fighers. Tejas MK2 should be in a good position to play that role. In the meantike Tejas MK1 should be inducted in numbers to get the IAF pilots to familiarize as well as to give feedbacks that could enhance the performance of the Mk2 version.<br /><br />Importing foreign wares at the exclusion of indigenous ones is very short-sighted. It will only make us slaves to foreign vendors. <br /><br />Hopefully the Rafale is the last of the foreign fighters that the IAF buys. It is possible if the LCA and AMCA programmes are given the funds and proper management inputs and supervision to ensure timelines are met. <br /><br />It is advisable if a complete new, modern facility is set up for the production of the LCA and AMCA.the terminatornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-21836690768454132842012-02-07T17:51:46.161-08:002012-02-07T17:51:46.161-08:00Tajas should be produced like cars, assembly shoul...Tajas should be produced like cars, assembly should be robotised and we should look at providing IAF with a good number like 300-400 of these mk2 jets. with china and pak making progress, we would need more squadrons than 39, so extra heavy fighters will help, but yes you are right, we would need more light fighters, and most important is training hours available to pilots, we should have the tejas trainer ready, and more aircraft in war reserve for each type too, atleast for the light aircraft type.ballabhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-31814983831296089062012-02-07T12:11:27.729-08:002012-02-07T12:11:27.729-08:00To expedite the presence of light fighters, India ...To expedite the presence of light fighters, India must hasten the progress and production of the Tejas-Mk-1, Mk-2 and Mk-3 by at least 250 Nos combined.<br /><br />As far as Rafale are concerned, they can fortunately replace almost all the aircraft like Mig-21/27/29, Jaguar, Mirage-2000 etc at a higher cost accompanied with much superior technology.Mr. Ranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-5175545015232688852012-02-07T12:07:49.753-08:002012-02-07T12:07:49.753-08:00I wonder where in history one finds a poor third w...I wonder where in history one finds a poor third world country spending billions of dollars in imports of weapons.<br />With per capita income less than mexico, indian defense paranoia had made its defense budget bigger than UK!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-86436660102007609452012-02-07T10:57:20.485-08:002012-02-07T10:57:20.485-08:00The biggest risk is not taking a risk, a country, ...The biggest risk is not taking a risk, a country, an institution, an organization, an entity must have the will, impurities freed crystal clear transparency, relentless integrity, the execution akin to a starving predator which has laid its paw on it prey, then with gods grace can anything great be achieved, Shuklaji i am afraid, the institutions, the people, the policies fail at every step mentioned above, it does not matter how long the country has been independent, i dont blame the politicians as they are representation of the collective ethos, it this earnest intentions of the people that have failed, if all the war equipment is foreign, the wars India will fight will be at the whim and fancies of the supplier.<br />-- A timid highest caste Hindu who ran away from India.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-37753287638357930412012-02-07T09:54:43.788-08:002012-02-07T09:54:43.788-08:00@ anon: 7 February 2012 12:16
u r a boy..we r spe...@ anon: 7 February 2012 12:16<br /><br />u r a boy..we r spending less than 50,000 crore on MMRCA and not 75000 crore as mentioned by dear colonel of ours...but if we consider 10,000 crore as a solid figure spent on entire LCA project then don't forget to adjust "inflation" and then put things in perspective..and don't forget its a multi agency prog. and hence actual funding cud be much more. IF HAL has failed to shore up resources and support from acad's whose fault is tat...PM won't go to every college to build support for HAL...do u think if HAL had offered a prog to an IIT, any IIT in country wud hav refused it??? and wid tat 10,000 crore wat they hav managed to create..skin tats it..tat too after developing skills after years of licence production..if they didn't learnt frm tat then whose fault is tat...Prime ministers??? no matter difficult it but if they r not able to develop a crystal blade..wats d use of their existence...I asked the name of one successful indigenous system..and no one cud name it...where r all those hyped systems...our Defence units r just assemblers...nothing more than tat..and why manufacturing units only..our army chiefs and generals rn't tat clean either...man understand..its just a system to make money and so everyone is doing tat..why crib n cry abt tat...this country is and will fall someday..so let it be..till tat happens enjoy...and let them enjoy their aadarsh's too...hahahaha..Great India...hahhahaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-40286965294854953842012-02-07T09:08:50.870-08:002012-02-07T09:08:50.870-08:00As for the last words by the author, Rafale might ...As for the last words by the author, Rafale might be the last fighter purchased from abroad, as USAF do not have plan for a manned combat fighter after F 35. Europeans and Russians following suit will leave Indians with no more markets for next big ticket purchase and hopefully we will also go for cheaper UAVs ( again imported).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-81147542315565962312012-02-07T09:07:57.484-08:002012-02-07T09:07:57.484-08:00Your observations are absolutely correct. Fun boys...Your observations are absolutely correct. Fun boys are delighted on Rafael purchase but in my opinion it will make our Air Force bankrupt like India Air Line. Do we really need so many twin engine heavy fighters ? Do we have that much money to buy them leave alone keep them air worthy ? The best option was to buy the second hand Mirage 2000 from UAE ( 3 Squarons, and they are willing to sell) and another three squadrons from France herself. And after that to upgrade them as per IAF. standard. Then to buy F 35 or Sukhoi PAKFA when they are ready. <br />I am not sure how the life time cost is calculated But one thing for sure a majority of those Rafael will be un-airworthy unless our economic situation improves very rapidly. Why Can't we learn from China. I just want to know how many foreign fighter jet China is buying ? The answer is known to us.Parthasarathihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07701421388606152443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-13188069063104281952012-02-07T08:04:09.998-08:002012-02-07T08:04:09.998-08:00I love to see Tejas flying for India.
However, I ...I love to see Tejas flying for India.<br /><br />However, I respect and value IAF decision. They are very well qualified to make such decisions.<br /><br />Any attempt to discredit that decision is against national interest.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-61000360040382515822012-02-07T06:53:35.821-08:002012-02-07T06:53:35.821-08:00will you write this article if India selects F-35....will you write this article if India selects F-35...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-68918031174427813912012-02-07T06:01:03.642-08:002012-02-07T06:01:03.642-08:00i fully agree with you this time Sir!!i fully agree with you this time Sir!!Virginal Thoughtshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09691224132454775593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-37709168473490773482012-02-07T03:47:00.670-08:002012-02-07T03:47:00.670-08:00Lets now hope that IAF finally wakes up from its s...Lets now hope that IAF finally wakes up from its slumber.<br /><br />If a follow-on order of 60 fighter jets is to be made, let that be the LCA Mark 2, which is equal in all respects to Gripen NG (one of the MRCA hopefuls).<br /><br />This is one way IAF can partly wash off its sins.Abhisheknoreply@blogger.com