Monday, 7 September 2009

Kaveri jet engine finally poised for first flight


Photo: The Kaveri aero jet engine undergoing final checks before its despatch to Russia for flight testing.



Ajai Shukla
GTRE, Bangalore
Business Standard, 7th Sept 09

After 20 years in the making, the Kaveri jet engine will finally take to the skies.

In 1989, Dr Mohana Rao, then a junior technician at the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bangalore, immersed himself in the ambitious Kaveri programme, which was designing a jet engine for the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. After pushing the Kaveri through two decades of heartbreak and achievement, Dr Rao is now the Director of GTRE. And his baby, the Kaveri engine, is ready to fly.

This week, a fully built Kaveri engine will be transported to a testing facility outside Moscow called the Gromov Flight Research Institute. Here, a giant IL-76 aircraft will have one of its four engines replaced with a Kaveri. Russian and GTRE experts will then evaluate the Kaveri’s performance while the IL-76 flies.

Before the actual flight tests, Russian experts at Moscow’s Central Institute of Aviation Motors will run ground checks on the Kaveri’s performance, in conditions that simulate altitudes up to 15 kilometers (49,200 feet).

Business Standard visited the Kaveri ground test bed at GTRE, Bangalore, where Russian experts are finishing “pre-acceptance checks” on the Kaveri engine that is headed for their facilities in Russia. The giant turbofan engine, suspended from a ceiling bracket, was being revved up gradually. As it roared to a deafening crescendo, engineers monitored the Kaveri’s power output, watching carefully from behind a bullet-proof glass window.

“The Kaveri’s development is complete”, confirmed Dr Mohana Rao, “In ground testing at GTRE it met the performance parameters laid down in 1998. The next step is to confirm that it performs during flight. A 50-person GTRE team will travel with the engine to Moscow and participate in the flight trials over the next 3-4 months.”

India has no facilities for altitude-testing and flight-testing jet engines. GTRE estimates it will take several hundred crore rupees to create such test facilities in India. Meanwhile, each test campaign in Russia costs Rs 50-60 crores.

For the DRDO (GTRE is a DRDO laboratory) even a successful Kaveri flight will be a bittersweet end to one of India’s most savagely criticised development programmes. A measure of success, on the one hand, in an ambitious technological leapfrog to building a modern jet engine, something only a few countries can do. On the other hand, the Kaveri has failed to provide an engine for the Tejas, even after spending Rs 3000 crores.

“The reason was two-fold”, explains Mohana Rao. “The Kaveri turned out 15% heavier than we planned. From the planned 1100 kg, its final weight has gone up to 1265 kg.”

Meanwhile, the Tejas fighter also turned out heavier than planned, demanding a more powerful engine; the Kaveri’s maximum thrust of 65 Kilo Newtons (KN) is simply not enough. The air force has chosen American GE 404-IN engines, which produce 80 KN at full power, to power the first 20 Tejas fighters. And subsequent Tejas will get about 95 KN of thrust from a new-generation engine: the General Electric GE-414 and the Eurojet EJ200 engines are currently being evaluated.

But GTRE is undeterred, having produced a high-tech turbofan jet engine in a country that has never produced even a motorcycle or car engine.

“We need more thrust without increasing the size of the engine”, says Mohana Rao. “That means getting better technologies from a more experienced foreign partner. We have chosen (French aero-engine major) Snecma. The Defence Ministry has approved the tie-up.”

Business Standard has learned that Rolls Royce, and General Electric declined to partner GTRE, apparently unwilling to part with cutting-edge technology. US major, Pratt & Whitney, was willing only to provide consultancy. With only Russia’s NPO Saturn and Snecma in the game, the MoD has opted for Snecma.

106 comments:

Anonymous said...

Did they tell you what the new power output was? There were some comments some time back by the Germans saying the engine was 1970's technology, wrt the regeneration section. Has this been improved upon in the new version?

Anonymous said...

“Photo 2: The Kaveri on its test bed at GTRE, Bangalore. The engine has developed a maximum thrust of 65 Kilo Newtons”

I think this is the photograph of the Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine, and not the Kaveri Jet Engine per-se. Also the photo is probably of the KMGT on the Navy’s gas turbine test cell at Vizag not Bangalore (Note the Dynamometer at the engine end, as also the duct (steel grey) at the middle to route the exhaust out / to the steam generator)

Anonymous said...

[I]"the Kaveri’s maximum thrust of 65 Kilo Newtons (KN) is simply not enough. The air force has chosen American GE 404-IN engines, which produce 80 KN at full power, to power the first 20 Tejas fighters."[/I]

The thrust numbers are obviously wrong or at best it is not an apples to apples comparison. The wet thrust of the Kaveri cannot be 65KN if the Kaveri acheived what was laid down as specs in 1998. No way anyone would have laid down a lower thrust than what the GE 404 which powered the LCA protoypes put out. The wet thrust of the F 404 -F2J3 (the original ones is 80KN wet), the F404 - IN20 for the 20 series productin ones puts out 87KN or so.

[i]"But GTRE is undeterred, having produced a high-tech turbofan jet engine in a [b]country that has never produced even a motorcycle or car engine.[/b]"[/i]
I think it is high time you stopped repeating the drivel about Indian not producing "even a motorcycle or car engine", handed out ad nauseum by the DRDO losers. Just because the DRDO/PSUs in India havent been able to develop even a single engine for a car or motorcycle, it doesnt mean that Indian industry has not produced a car or motorcycle or truck engine.

Why just google around and see where the engines in the Bajaj bikes and TVS bikes and scooters come from, also check out where the engines for the Mahindra Scorpio, Xylo etc come from, and not to mention many Tata Motors products including the old gen Indica, the Safari, Sumo etc, nearly all the Tata trucks.

If any PSU babu repeats the whine about "Oh the country has not even produced a car, while we do this and that" , please point to them all the Tata Indicas (maybe you took an Indica taxi to get there), the TVS and Bajaj bikes, the Mahindra vehicles and everything on the road and tell them not to drag everyone down to their low and pathetic standards of underachievement.

And for heavens sake, get a little smarter and dont swallow thier drivel hook line and sinker and print them as well!

Anonymous said...

Yeah Ajai, "country that has never produced even a motorcycle or car engine." is a bit too much to digest with so many Indian vehicles on the roads!

sarang said...

yeah there is something definitely wrong in the numbers
Kaveri had a higher thrust that GEF404, also as far as I remember MoD had shot down a proposal of DRDO to develop the kaveri engine with SNECMA, dont know the reason for that

Anonymous said...

I find this a bit lame
===
But GTRE is undeterred, having produced a high-tech turbofan jet engine in a country that has never produced even a motorcycle or car engine.
====
Like the dude above me has correctly pointed out that it is wrong.

Anyway,
What is the final thrust that Kaveri produces?

Broadsword said...

Anonymous 09:52, you are correct, thanks for that. Photo removed.

Anonymous 10:15, if you believe that either the Mahindras, the Bajajs or the Tatas have developed their engines ground up, you are spectacularly misinformed.

Just to take one example, the mHawk engine on the Scorpio (which is what I drive) incorporates sub-assemblies available off the shelf in the international market. Every critical sub-assembly, e.g. the diesel injection system, has been sourced from global majors like Bosch. If you think that the Mahindras are capable of designing Variable Geometry Turbines, cylinder walls, injection systems, or developing metallurgy for their engines, you've been smoking something that I want a bit of. Actually, no thanks.

Fine, people of your ilk will argue, why should Mahindras re-invent the wheel? Let them assemble engines from off-the-shelf components, you will say (even though this benefit is not granted to the DRDO labs).

But even the design of these engines (based on off-the-shelf components) is done alongside a foreign partner. In the case of the Scorpio, the design partner (who actually did almost ALL the design) was AVL, Austria.

Since you're so good at Googling, why don't you Google "Mahindra Scorpio AVL Austria" and educate yourself.

Then, when you're done with that, Google "Xylo AVL Austria".

The Indica (which you assume I took to meet the "PSU babu" who allegedly fed me this story... never mind the GTRE dateline on the article!) is powered by the 1.3 litre Quadrajet engine. So next Google, "1.3 Quadrajet Fiat".

Learning lots of surprising things today, aren't you, smarty-pants?

Some day, take the trouble to visit a DRDO lab? Or even, for that matter, visit the Mahindras. Don't just sit about swallowing any old rubbish that is fed to you by some executive with direct commercial interests in pushing a falsehood?

And instead of acting as a mouthpiece for the private sector, take the trouble of travelling around and meeting people and actually seeing (wow! what a revolutionary idea!!) the facilities and laboratories that are making genuine efforts to catch-up. They may be some way from world class still. But who knows... one day they might get there!

Broadsword said...

All you good folks, just because a vehicle is plying on an Indian road, with an Indian registration number, with a name as quintessentially Indian as "Tata", or "Bajaj", does not mean it is powered by an Indian engine.

Has everybody on the blog been smoking today? which part of these words: "the Kaveri’s maximum thrust of 65 Kilo Newtons (KN)" do you not understand?

Anonymous said...

Nice article Ajai Sir keep it up. About time somebody said something about the Kaveri!

Anonymous said...

Ajai, the Kaveri's specs required a wet thrust (in afterburner) of 81kN, and so how is 65 kN anywhere near what was the specified design thrust goal ? Could you please verify if this is accurate ?

Anonymous said...

I hope the development work on Kaveri Engine continues... Every country that develops an engine of this sort faces problems and delays...

Although we are behind schedule and the requirements have changed, the successful completion of Kaveri engine program is necessary for self reliance. If we scrap the program, we are back to "zero" which is a lose-lose situation.

Anonymous said...

Err. Surely the earlier Indica taxis don't have the Quadrajet engine. Why even the new indica is offered with TDI as an option. And anyways, Tata did offer the DICOR engine.

So maybe you need to get tutions on using google!. How about googling for 2.2 Dicor on the Safari or the TCIC on the safari, how about the long long list of Indian engines on Tata trucks, right from the Tata ACE to the 407 LCV to the 609 LCV to the bigger 12, 15, 20 and 40 ton trucks? .

Sure, they use fuel injection equipment from Bosch whoever. But then there are just 3 or 4 such major guys in the world in that space (Delphi with TVS in India, Bosch earlier Mico in India, Siemens and probably one or two Japanese guys). Fact is, if Tata or anyone went and custom built a fuel injection system from scratch, they would be simply uncompetitive price wise because any one particular manufacturer will have far lower volumes than a global major like Bosch. That is one part of the equation.

Also going to Ricardo or AVL etc for consulting help is NOT the same as designing an engine. What that is is like essentially asking a doctor for a second opinion (any good doctor will advise you to get a second opinion before any major surgery or procedure or treatment etc). This kind of design outsourcing is done everywhere. There are shops in Bangalore which design components for GE/RR/PW engines and do basic thermodynamic characterization.. Doesn't mean they actually are responsbile for the engine.

No manufacturer in the world makes their own fuel injection equipment. Toyota, Honda, BMW, Merc, GM,Ford, Nissan EvERYone buys it from one of the 4 guys.That is how the industry is organized!. There are good economic reasons for it. Lets recognize that.

As for a Bajaj DTSI engines on all their products like Pulsar , Discovery etc, they are all home grown and with their own IP!. So are most TVS engines from their mopeds to bike.

Now google harder and tell me one SINGLE engine that your PSU babus have come out.. How about the erstwhile Scooter's India Vijay/Allwyn Pushpak and all the rest of them.

As for the drivel from PSU babus about "Oh, India has not built a car or a bike" it sounds like such a broken LP record.. Heard of the Tata Nano ?

Anonymous said...

“The Kaveri’s development is complete”, confirmed Dr Mohana Rao

This looks straight out of Missile development complete and hence closing down, kinda sinking feeling.

Ajai, after highlighting all the partnership in the engines of various vahicles, did you ponder about the amount of foreign content in kaveri??

fighterclass said...

ajai, about the maximum thrust of kaveri, I'm assuming you are talking of reheat thrust ?

if it is indeed 65 kN now that is a very serious shortfall from the original requirements which called for max 52 kN dry and 81 kN reheat.

I do appreciate the challenges involved in cutting edge turbofan development but this is close to 20 % shortfall, quite a lot ! do they have any explanation why this is so ?

thanks.

fighterclass said...

oh just brilliant anon @ 13:02, why don't you go and develop the technology for kaveri ?

that way we won't need any foreign help. did you ponder that ?

clearly no. so, shut up !

Anonymous said...

Ajaiji,
You were writing a book on sino-indo LOC. For this reason you went to Arunachal Pradesh. But where is the book, when is it going to hit the stand?

Tejaswy said...

Military thrust | (52.0 kN) (60.0 kN) ]
Full afterburner:(81.0 kN) [Goal: (90.0 kN)]

Anonymous said...

Ajay ji

Kirloskar manufactures entire engine including the fuel system.


Rest of the manufacturers do not manufacture since they will need to invest in costly manufacturing facilities which is required for manufacturing fuel system. However if the budget is 3000 cr. then it is possible to setup a world class pant for engine manufacturing. e.g is SUZUKI POWERTRAIN @ 1800 crore by Maruti Udyog at manesar.

Anonymous said...

Sir,
Do you cook food,stitch clothes,cut your hair...etc etc....all by yourself.
The answer is NO.Why??Because you can get it done by someone whom you can pay for the services he provided.But it doesn't mean that you can't do such things.
The same theory applies to TATA,BAJAJ or XYZ.They are supposed to deliver cars at normal prices not FERRARI-like engines to customers.And they are doing good...ain't they???
Which mentally retarded pathetic fellow at GTRE told you that we have never produced a single car engine on our own??Perhaps you need to take some Googling lessons from me.I'll won't charge you or take 20 years in getting things done.And if i start counting failures of PSUs....you know i'll be short of soft space.

Last but not the least....i loved these words "They may be some way from world class still. But who knows... one day they might get there!".
One day i might be the president of USA.Here lies the problem.Instead of saying i might be this..i might be that why can't we say "I'll be this".The word 'might' says our ability and dedication to achieve something or at all anything.
Regarding smoking weed...it's like SHAADI KE LADDU..JO KHAYE WO BHI PACHTAYE,JO NA KHAYE WO BHI PACHTAYE.When you got to go,you got to go.
regards;
Rasogulla eater

Anonymous said...

you guys are really smoking something as Ajai says if you think India has ever produced any engine the kind of which GTRE has done, let alone gas turbines. the car engines and motorbike engines you guys are prattling about, in your fixation with the indian private sector are invariably either derivatives of old gen western engines, or cobbled together using a variety of parts from western OEMs which retain both design and manufacturing technology.

Ajai is exactly right, that you guys let your idealogy dictate the reality and not vice versa.

Anon@12:59 does a fine bit of downhill skiing, from claiming that DRDO./GTRE are losers for making an engine and claiming its a first in the indian industry, which it is, now its anon defending the honor and dignity of the pvt sector's cobble together approach, by stAting, oh everybody does that, import and assemble, when the deeper point is they dont have anywhere near the capability GTRE has demonstrated. only ISRO comes close, and even there, russia agreed to share a huge amount of tech for the GSLV program which was a one off deal the kind of which was never available to DRDO for the Kaveri.

the entire point which all you people miss is nobody gave GTRE the end design for their engine, they had to go the ENTIRE part alone. consultancy chosen by DRDO was also limited and used when equivalent facilities in india did not exist. 3000 crores is peanuts for an engine development program, to give an idea since people on this blog about the people at drdo and why people from abroad are not hired, 1 crore is what it costs nowadays for a top 4 year degree in the US of A, if all you people keep talking about how best talent should be hired. even a MBA from a top school, one which actually matters goes for 50 Lakhs. now go look back at the 3000 crores and what it has brought india in terms of infrastructure and people who have grown with the program, like T Mohana Rao.

All you folks talk high falutin stuff but how many of you actually have worked on or designed any technology item? No, dont tell me - let me guess its all strategy and business planning and presentations.

Ajai is right about visiting DRDO labs and seeing what constraints they work under. for all the talk of strategic tieups and india being rich, technology in GT Engines is very carefully hoarded. what is offered is usually intended to either derail existing efforts or thoroughly out of date. lets see whether the snecma deal comes through and whether it changes the paradigm so far.

even there i have doubts. this is the work of decades, no get rich scheme will work for engines. indians have a fixation with the easy path and thinking that they have arrived when the path is about endurance and not glamour and speed.

Marijuana? said...

Ajai Shukla, did you smoke weed before this write up? Probably you should take a good nap and review it in the morning.


You say India does not have metallurgy technology for creating engine blocks? Please visit Forge India. They export engine blocks and internal components to Ford.

You say India has no engine technology? How about the Tata trucks you see plying our roads? Please don't mistake a consultant for design. A consultant is only to verify technology. Many Toyota engines are also jointly developed with German consultancy. Does that mean Toyota engines are Jap-German?
You say Tata/Mahindra can't make EFI. So please find me a Mercedes Benz or BMW EFI. Fact is there are limited manufacturers for Fuel Injection systems in the market, and it serves economics of scale.

fighterclass said...

tejaswy, where did you get those figures from ?

it's all wrong obviously, that's the problem of depending on wikipedia !

here's the actual target figures from the horse's mouth.
http://www.drdo.org/products/kaveri.htm

Anonymous said...

"you guys are really smoking something as Ajai says if you think India has ever produced any engine the kind of which GTRE has done, let alone gas turbines. the car engines and motorbike engines you guys are prattling about, in your fixation with the indian private sector are invariably either derivatives of old gen western engines, or cobbled together using a variety of parts from western OEMs which retain both design and manufacturing technology."

Gosh. You are so blind to something right in front of your eyes and to something you dont want to see. Look at the big trend in Autos in India. India is becoming the small car hub of the world and in the next 3 years even Toyota and Honda, in addition to Ford and GM are going to make India the hub for thier small cars. And why is that ?. Becuase indian auto components business has come of age. Every global biggie is sourcing everything from forgings, shafts, pistons and every other component imaginable from Indian vendors such as Rane, Bharat Forge and everyone. Every global auto biggie in every segment of the market (high end like Merc BMW Jag etc), right down to Nano has components engineered and built in India.

Let the public sector babu morons stick with their hackneyed notions of making Lamberetta scooters from 1972 to 1990 with no change (other than changing the name to Vijai and adding Mark I, II, II etc to the name with really no change any where).

Indian industry has whizzed past and transformed. For all this "designed abroad" stuff, the golden standard of proof is license payments for intellectual property. Go on, show me how much royalty payment does Bajaj pay for it's engines in the DTSI range. Find out the similar royalty number for Hero Honda for instance. That will show you the difference.

While you are there, also check the royalty payment of Mahindra to AVL. How about zero?. If it is zero, whose Intellectual Property is it? Mahindra or AVLs?

तेजस्वी said...

Fighter Class,
I am a but new to mil equipment so i am bound to make mistakes :D
Any way the DRDO page states kaveri as



Maximum dry thrust : 52 kN (5302 kg)
After burner maximum power thrust : 81 kN (8260 kg)
===
and so does wikipedia

* Military thrust (throttled):11,687 lbf (52.0 kN) [Goal: 13,500 lbf (60.0 kN) ]
* Full afterburner:18,210 lbf (81.0 kN) [Goal: 20,200 lbf (90.0 kN)]
==
Where did i go wrong?

Anonymous said...

May be its time Ajay admits that this blog is Half baked!!!

fighterclass said...

tejaswy, the DRDO figures are the goal, the numbers in bracket of the wiki page have nothing to do with the actual program.

the wiki page makes it look like 52kN/81kN are the achieved values while in truth those are the target values. the achieved values are lower as ajai says.

Anonymous said...

@MORON 16:24
Did guys at GTRE gave you pan-masala to defend them aggressively??How about you do some research before vomiting here.

@AJAI
Why are you after private sector??Did they fire you because you were half baked.Seriously man,age is taking a toll on you.Start thinking about retirement from everything.It's time you told these stories to your grandchildren.they won't disappoint you and probably they may join GTRE for KAVERI MK-2.

Anonymous said...

thanx for showing some courtesy on us posting news on atleast tejas engine

ajay u mentioned 65kn acheived with 1265kg. it seems to be wet thrust if it is dry thrust our hal people will choose kaveri itself and hence we are looking for ge414 , eurojt

our engine is overweight and very low on required thrust so why drdo sending these engines to russia still wasting 50-60 more crores
dont look at wiki page it is full of speculation it says engine weight 1150kg goal 950kg but ajay tells it is 1265kg avva what a blunder acheivement by drdo

Anonymous said...

कावेरी इंजन हरि ॐ

AK said...

Reading through all these comments make me feel sick. What is clear is that India has no jet engine technology to speak of and GTRE is wasting it's time a TaxPayer's money on this Kaveri thing. This basically means that LCA has no future since we do not have a decent engine to fit in it. So back to square one.

abhi said...

I simply don't understand why people are comparing developement of a jet engine with developement of automobile/truck/scooter/bike engine. There is no comparison! Its like chalk and cheese. Why don't these advocates of private developement/ cots products try and make an engine for a tank which is much closer in terms of performance to their kind of products and then maybe gradute to aero-engines. Look we need a whole lot of them for our basic trainers, IJT's and also LCA. There is guarenteed purchase man. Bingo. Go make your day and money.

BTW with this thrust could we serial produce this engine( as and when it completes testing) for powering our trainers while we take Snecma (or whoever's consulatncy/ help) to develop a higher thrust version for LCA.

Anonymous said...

We fervently pray that the test will be a resounding success.

Anonymous said...

I do not know about engine design. GTRE may have enabled India to master many technologies.

What i don't understand and dislike are statements like these.
'“The Kaveri’s development is complete”, confirmed Dr Mohana Rao'. This statement is incorrect, misleading, if not outright lies.

It’s not just information 'fed to you by some executive with direct commercial interests', former Army chief V P Malik in an interview agreed that DRDO was boastful (http://www.zeenews.com/news561216.html) in its claims over developing weapons.

DRDO at least has to be truthful to the armed forces about its capabilities and schedules. I hope the army does not use the openness as an opportunity to be a teenager in a mall who things there are no limits on the credit card.

True Indian. said...

It is just fcuking bullshittt comparing the civilian ones with military ones.

No one does really care if a domestic automobile company goes foreign to buy components or even the whole engine to roll out their cars or motor bikes.The civilian automobile makers are profit oriented guys.so it is preferable for them to choose between time frame of developments and cost of the project for such developments.

Lets take a loose example with Tata Nano:- Tata`s dont develope each and every component needed to build nano.I meant Tata`s here as India.So it is fair for them to go to outside world and buy components.they can even drive a hard bargain with the vendors so that they can roll Nano out with the lowest market price.It works out for them.Even if the same vendor blackmails for more money ,then Tata`s can switch to other vendor and it still works out for them.Only reason is they are civilian automobiles and are mainly profit and market cap oriented.

But it doesn`t go the same way with defence equipment developers and producers.The solo reason is NATIONAL SECURITY is based on it.

You are putting the lives of 1.2 billion at risk because of your fcuking improper project management and because of fcuking hiring system which is based on reservation rather than on merit.

Give half the amount that been spent all these years on Kaveri to either L&T or any other esteemed engeneering gaint in Private sector in India,they will bring out the same damn Kaveri with the new requirements in 1/4th the time frame took by this retarded GTRE.
Why every one is praising private sector while bashing DRDO/public sector labs is because of the solo reason that they were ill managed.
As long as this reservation system haunts the public sector ,trust me no project will be delivered on time.Public sector is missing the talents because of the reservation ghost while Public sector is cashing the merit with no basis of reservations.Hence they got their hands on proper talents with incredible project management and development skills.

O Mr Assholee fighterclass @07 September 2009 13:05,

for sure you must be one of those tribes eh.supporting the loosing public sector labs who had junior technicians promoted as Lab Directors.
And what do you expect from a lab with Technician taking charge as Director and misusing funds ?

Shiv Aroor said...

ajai, your responses are priceless. the sarcasm is hilarious. more, please!

Tejaswy said...

@fighter class
===
Meanwhile, the Tejas fighter also turned out heavier than planned, demanding a more powerful engine; the Kaveri’s maximum thrust of 65 Kilo Newtons (KN) is simply not enough.
====
So what is the required thrust that kaveri has to achive?
DRDO says 52KN is enough
Wiki says 60KN is the goal

The tests want to prove that the thrust is 65KN.

What is the thrust we want to achive?

Anonymous said...

Well, what the GTRE is saying is that, with this engine, even if it is perfected, you're only going to get 62KN thrust max. In that sense, "development is complete".

The project failed one of it's primary objectives, though GTRE may have learned a lot of lessons in the process. So either dump this engine, or find other uses for it.

Summary: We haven't mastered cutting edge aircraft engine technology yet. It's back to the drawing boards for us... which is alright, R&D is always lie this, you will fail many times before you are successful.

Anonymous said...

I think the cold hard truth that Jingos don't want to accept is that the Kaveri's performance does not match expectations, let alone the more grandiose claims. At 1265 kg empty weight and 65KN augmented thrust, the Kaveri engine has slightly more than a 5:1 thrust weight ratio. Mr. Shukla isn't the first person to point this out, way back earlier this year at Aero India the scientists in charge of the program admitted that they did not have several critical technologies for modern turbofans and that the thrust was significantly below the published claims. The only parameter GTRE has proven adept at is stringing along the gullible public who wish to believe despite all evidence to the contrary that India is capable of producing world class jet engines. It obviously isn't, which is why the LCA will fly with GE F-404 engines.

True Indian Again. said...

After all DRDO and its bunch of labs proved to be immaterial and waste of money.

Instead of netas going for public labs and feeding these bunch of suckers they rather would have given the same oppertunity to the private sector.

People might comment me saying that Private sector wont do things unless it forms a JV with a foreign partner--they thats the same thing DRDO doing all these years.MOD is reluctant to buy stuff from local companies .It is willing to buy only from public sector and that through JV`s.
Only hardocre reason behind all this shit is money.If they get a foreign company into a JV,MOD and his co will get comission.
Unless GOI change its course of corruption and taking it to new heights,India will be like this only.

And Mr Shiv,

Aren`t you among those few like Parun and others who keep praising the foreign mall .You guys are a mole on the face of India.While living in India you freaken journos praise the foreign mall just becos they pay you money.then you guys better change your citizenship and get the F out from India.

Convey the same to Mr.US licker(aka Prasun sen guptha)not to bully the Indians with his Us fantasy stories on Force India.

Anonymous said...

>>>Gosh. You are so blind to something right in front of your eyes and to something you dont want to see. Look at the big trend in Autos in India. India is becoming the small car hub of the world and in the next 3 years even Toyota and Honda, in addition to Ford and GM are going to make India the hub for thier small cars. And why is that ?. Becuase indian auto components business has come of age. Every global biggie is sourcing everything from forgings, shafts, pistons and every other component imaginable from Indian vendors such as Rane, Bharat Forge and everyone. Every global auto biggie in every segment of the market (high end like Merc BMW Jag etc), right down to Nano has components engineered and built in India.

Let the public sector babu morons stick with their hackneyed notions of making Lamberetta scooters from 1972 to 1990 with no change (other than changing the name to Vijai and adding Mark I, II, II etc to the name with really no change any where).

Indian industry has whizzed past and transformed. For all this "designed abroad" stuff, the golden standard of proof is license payments for intellectual property. Go on, show me how much royalty payment does Bajaj pay for it's engines in the DTSI range. Find out the similar royalty number for Hero Honda for instance. That will show you the difference.,


gosh you sound one of the gasbag strategy and presentation types. i am guessing here, but you sound like one of the typical overweight, over dressed, fat cats i see in the corp offices of IT VITY.

do one thing, get your fat, large ass out of your corporate IT office, out into the actual streets and start visiting factories. you will quickly learn a few things, you and your idiotic fanboys who can only vomit F**cking and bullshit like the uneducated call center a$$holes at 18:37, 19:35, and 21:45.

you at least have some education, the rest of these hicks havent even got that.

now, lets get to your reality - your glossy shit in car and auto mags aside, the reality is that none of these companies you mention can even come close to what GTRE has done. its a fact. i used to sell CNC equipment to these guys and these chaps would prefer buying second hand rejected stuff from europe rather than invest in high end tooling for even R&D. there are just a handful of companies right now which are even investing in their own engines, and you idiots dont even know which these are.

dumping on the private sector is entirely justified. the baniya logic which these guys have relied on is to be basically be happy at the low end of the value chain and it nowhere translates into disaster in high end defence manufacture which requires constant investment in R&D and tooling.

last year, the Ministry of Defence rejected several of your heros from private sector when these idiots tried to pass off foreign technology as their own. they used the nice try of using JVs with multiple ownership and locally assembling and then saying "hey this is JV just like brahmos".

basically all you wannabe foreigners living in india dont know much about your own country. none of you will even give up your fat pay packages to slog as the GTRE guys do.
all this strategy stuff only sounds good in overpriced IT which relies on high margin and low returns and the dollar arbitrage to gain glamor.

ask bharat forge why they didnt go into defence full time. even baba kalyani, one of the most hard nosed manufacturers has admitted it costs too much money to be in it as key supplier

anon@21:01, grow up will ya - TMohana Rao said the truth, the Kaveri development is complete.


and that Zee news link you are pointing to is out of context. see how malik handles the loaded question - it was Karan Thapar who said DRDO is boastful and all Malik said was there were some disagreements. that thapar also tried to use his tricks to have malik attack kalam but malik didnt oblige. the same jackass thapar should rot in hell for what he did to Sam Manekshaw.

fighterclass said...

@ tejaswy, it seems to me that you may be unclear as to the differences between dry thrust and wet thrust (also called reheat thrust or full after-burner thrust)

fighter engines specify two kinds of thrust, max dry (also called max military power) and max wet thrust(also called simply max power).

for the kaveri target for these were 52 kN and 81kN respectively as the DRDO page says.

Col. Shukla's statement that Kaveri’s maximum thrust of 65 Kilo Newtons (KN) is simply not enough. refers to the wet thrust assuming there is no typo.
hence we find that there is BIG shortfall in the kaveri's targeted and achieved thrust figures.

ajai has added to the confusion by not providing the corresponding dry thrust figures.

as to the wiki figure, you can flush it down the nearest tiolet, understand that ANYBODY can edit an wiki article.

savvy ? ;)

Anonymous said...

Anon 07 September 2009 22:02

"R&D is always like this, you will fail many times before you are successful."

I understand but i don't see any sense of regret coming out of GTRE. They seem to be boastful of their failure.

"Well, what the GTRE is saying is that, with this engine, even if it is perfected, you're only going to get 62KN thrust max. In that sense, "development is complete"."

'Development is complete' before features that are well below specifications are tested? Come on Anon :)

Anonymous said...

ARGUMENTS WILL LEAD TO NOTHING One can only hope that the engine will help the new generation of Techs understand the problems involved and help improve the engine building facility EVEN THOUGH I WANTED TO SEE THE LCA POWERED BY THE KAVERI TAKE ON FC-10'S AND JF-17'S OF PAK-CHI AXIS BUT ITS STILL A DREAM AWAY ALL THE BEST TO INDIA THATS ALL I WOULD LIKE TO SAY

KR said...

Perhaps you can do an article on Quality Assurance in DRDO and BARC labs. Looking at the surprise outcome with Kaveri, the tribulations with the Arjun and the developing story with the nuclear weapons, it appears that QA is given the short shrift in these organisations. Further, this article itself says that GTRE is sacrificing QA because of the costs involved in creating facilities (hello!). I suspect improving the QA side of things will lead to better project outcomes.

karthik said...

@True Indian: You clearly don't have the intelligence or the inclination to understand a blog like Ajai's. So it's probably best you go back to your foolish black-and-white life where things are clear-cut like lego blocks. I honestly hope folks like you never get to be decision-makers in the country.

Anonymous said...

KR, my dear why not learn a little (not more, that would overload your brain) before opening your mouth ?

QC is a term associated with production and the DRDO is not a production organisation, that job is for the OFB and as everyone with a bit of knowledge knows they are a mess.

GTRE is one dark spot, there are many many bright ones, all done at a price tag which won't buy you a decent pair of wings in foreign labs, let alone a complete aircraft.

on arjun, care to spell out what REAL problems your exalted being spy in it ? (other than the fact that it is designed in India, we all know that)

Anonymous said...

After all DRDO and its bunch of labs proved to be immaterial and waste of money.

says who ? YOU ? HA HA HA !!!

Anonymous said...

True Indian = Paki in disguise !

Swapnil said...

I know this may seem laughable but I would like to share a couple of views:(i m a complete naive and after reading this blog and doin a bit of research i got some insights)

1. dont understand why is every1 ready to hang the project for not reachin desired levels rather than contemplatin more tests

2. why doent GOI allow the public sector companies to go beyond the requirements of IAF and let them explore the export market which China is supposedly tryin to capture.

3. many countries in asia, africa and south america dont even posses a 2nd gen. aircraft or at best 3rd gen. aircraft and that too are obtained from china

4. tHe Indian gov, can explore this market and sell its own indigeneous aircraft with current Kaveri engine(65 kn thrust) to such countries with a little modification as 3.5gen-4gen. aircraft.

5. this in effect can be sold at a minimal profit but doin so will indirectly affect chinas export, create diplomatic relations and generate some revenue for such project so that even if delays occur the development cost can still be reduced

6. AT the same time that supply lines are open to such countries, the PSU can continue with its research simulatneuosly and meet its target with no extra spendings,Also the then more advanced a/c can be put on sale to those countries which had earlier shown interest.

7. No country will hv ny objections to weapons on board since they hv already been proved worthy and the only issue with LCA seems to be the engine, which after some test flights can go on sale similar to chinas JF17 thunder(China says its justa export version and PAkis & bangladeshis buy it but not china itself), great mktg trick!!

8. one other pt that need to be addresed is getin private sector involved , its high time now that they get some chance to prove worthiness and if required can work as a 50-50 JV between GOI and private company

Anonymous said...

@AJAI
Any updates on the SPACESHIP that GTRE is going to provide??I think we had enough of Kaveri.
No matter how much u alter,u can't convert a donkey into a race horse.Same is the case with GTRE guys.

Anonymous said...

swapnil, those are good points but will never happen.

you know why ?

because of good for nothing idiots like True Paki who can't build a pin even if the entire world reserve of gold is thrown at them.

Anonymous said...

'QC is a term associated with production "

and Quality control has nothing to do with validating requirements? :)

True Indian said...

@ above
To clean the dust in the brains of some worthless bastards here.
Since the population of india is more than 1 billion,it is not necessary that all the citizens must have to agree on same thing.

You say Gandhi is father of nation,I might disagree with that.

Since you are paying the taxes with the money earned by your mom by sleeping with your neighbours,while i am paying the taxes with my hard earned money by sweating and being a nationalist I know the value of time,sacrifice and money while you dont.

If you did have read the Ex Army chiefs Maliks statement that DRDO came in the way of Army acquiring weapon locating radars and been sololy responsible for the cause of so many deaths.
I have to be more precise----DRDO responsible for the Death of Indians.
This is only one sample of that sort.while DRDO betrayed the Indian citizens in many ways.
Cmon folks while the soldies are dying on the border these people in DRDO are building the world class AC rooms for resting and for playing billiards and shit.

I am not ending with only pointing DRDO.
Both IA and IAF are cheating on their own citizens.
IF the IAF transport Aircraft was being shot down by the bastard chinese reptiles on the NE border does the news came out into the general public even after more than 2 months of incident?

Woooooov and look whom we have here :-The great styavanth Ajayshukla,shiv Aroor,Prasun,Raghuvamsi,Suman,........
these people are hypocrites.
They really dont care about the nation.Sorry for pointing out these few.But in general the whole Indian Media is like that.
Every one care about is money.If you pay me more then i will pen down an article in today economic times or business standard about you.Cmon guys get some real life.

We India as a nation was fucked you for more than 1000 years.And just we settled down as a nation and got our independance we elected a biggest bastards on this planet.

Right after WWII,the whole independance movement turned into a religious and caste based.Gandhi tried to fuck Ambedkhar and while Nehru not wanting to have an opposition divided India.(fucking bastards)

Sicne then,even after 62 years if we turn back and asses where we are standing :- One can realise that we are standing on the road that was laid with reservations,corruptions,crimes,bloody politics and what not?

And how can an organisation that was build gathering the stones from the same old road can be a sucessfull one?

I salute to the great personalities of India who pushed the nation forward atleast this much.And my honors to such.

But i really that those bastards who were cross breeded calling me a paki.And i knew their location, without minding any thing I am gonna chop them into a million slices.

I do know that over 505 of Indians dont give a shit what ever happens to the country.All they need is a stable monthsly income and a luxury living in a condo with a sedan.The Sad part is ,these people are worth for paying taxes and not worth for being called a CITIZEN.
And we have over 25% of other folks who direly hates this country. and wants to see it break into pieces while joining hands with foreign nationals .these are extremists.they neither pay taxes not being called citizens.these are the illegals.(Eg: Founders of INC,whole INC,Communists,.....)

And we were left with another 25% people who even dont care to die for the country.And unfortunate is that this 25 % has to fight against the invaders against the extremists and even against the other 75%.

IF a Country like India is this much fucked up, no wonder folks calling me a paki.Have fun with that bastards.

Anonymous said...

and Quality control has nothing to do with validating requirements? :)

..........

validating requirements is not even a phrase that makes sense. but if you knew that you would have known about QC too.

Anonymous said...

"validating requirements is not even a phrase that makes sense"

You learn about 'validating requirements' in college. They don't teach that in second grade.

KR said...

on arjun, care to spell out what REAL problems your exalted being spy in it ?

There was a report how Arjun failed a summer trial with the customer because some sensor was miscalibrated to 55 degrees instead of 60 degrees. In this case, the DRDO just seems to have put something together hoping it'd work without actually trying it out to verify if it did work. These types of embarrasments usually happen when there is minimal QA involved.

QC is a term associated with production and the DRDO is not a production organisation

Who is supposed to look after the customer's interests during R&D if there is no QA? And who raises the alarm about unrealistic timelines or products falling short of requirements? If all of this is left to the customer, the customer will go with other suppliers who perform these functions in-house.

Broadsword said...

Let me respond to this outpouring of opinion… very little of it characterised by moderation or nuance. First, some clarifications on matters of fact:

1. 65 KN is the wet thrust of the Kaveri. It is clearly below what the DRDO set out to achieve, but it must still go for flight-testing to complete the development cycle. If the flying performance of the engine is not validated and documented in detail, the next engine development cannot draw on the developmental lessons from the Kaveri. So those 50-60 crores have to be spent.

2. Dr Mohana Rao’s statement: “the Kaveri’s development is complete” is not to be confused with “the Kaveri’s development is a success”. The GTRE Director is merely saying that no more developmental effort will go into the Kaveri. Kindly read statements carefully and understand what the person is saying. If you are unable to LISTEN, you are unable to UNDERSTAND.

Dr Mohana Rao’s statement cannot be equated with the earlier IGMDP statement, except by someone without an ounce of intellectual integrity. The IGMDP statement suggested that the IGMDP programme was a success, and was, therefore, being wound up. Mr Rao, on the other hand, frankly admits that the Kaveri cannot power the LCA and that GTRE now needs a foreign partner for technology infusions.

But the most important part. Some of the visitors to this blog apparently need to be explained the difference between component manufacture, development of a component, development of a sub-system, development of a system, and development of an entire platform. Someone called Marijuana (how cool, man!) actually compares Forge India’s export of engine blocks for Ford with the design of a jet engine in a DRDO lab!

Marijuana, don’t embarrass yourself any further than you already do with your name!

Anonymous 17:20, India’s auto sector is indeed a major manufacturing location for the world’s auto industry, but please, please, please… they don’t develop most of those components. And the ones that they do develop are at the component level, not at the level of systems. Indian manufacturers can develop a gear pinion, a gearshaft, but not a gearbox. See?

Kirloskar manufactures engines, says someone… sure it does! HAL also manufactures loads of Russian engines at Koraput… would you call them Indian engines? Or compare that manufacture with developing the Kaveri? Duh.

It is absolutely correct to argue that importing crucial foreign components is permissible in a car or motorcycle engine, but that is to be discouraged in the case of a military jet engine which is being developed for strategic reasons. So why are people comparing the two?

It is fine to cite economic logic --- like development costs, economies of scale and other jargon that class X commerce students all know nowadays --- for buying injection systems for a commercial production line. But economic logic does not drive the indigenous production of military equipment. In this, you cannot make yourself vulnerable to disruption of supplies from that “economically logical” partner.

So don’t compare the PRODUCTION of an engine where foreign components are a part of daily business with the DEVELOPMENT of an engine, which is all about beating potential sanctions and retaining strategic autonomy.

And finally, the priceless argument that going to a foreign consultant is only like asking a doctor for a second opinion. Mr Wiseacre, when you go to that doctor, be prepared to pull your pants down and expose yourself to the doctor in all your lack of glory. Don’t have any illusions about retaining any secrecy or copyright once you get in for a consultancy.

cheers!

Rafale said...

Guys,
I am sure DRDO is doing its best to develop this engine.The scientists who worked on the Kaveri could have easily gone abroad or to greener pastures.Lets appreciate their efforts & hope they are more successful in the future.Sure,there might be a few sore spots in defense PSUs but I am sure there will be quality engineers & scientists who will have the best interests of the country in their mind

Anonymous said...

"In this, you cannot make yourself vulnerable to disruption of supplies from that “economically logical” partner."

Hmm. A the Babu guys sure gave you a sucker punch. So what happens if Bosch , Delhpi, Siemens and the say Nippon Denso and put under pressure and say that they will NOT supply fuel injection equipment to the Indian Automotive industry ?. No diesel engine or for that matter petrol engine with MPFI can be made in India. How about that for "disruption" ?. Companies will go bankrupt in 6 months, the entire fleet of vehicles in India will freeze in 12 months if there are no critical fuel injection supplies. The country's economy will freeze. No movement of good, no transport, no nothing. No food in your stores, no trains, no tractors work, most pumps dont work. Thought about it ? I guess not. Sure if you cannot think beyond "Defence = Strategic" you cant. Companies all over the world learn how to deal with critical supplies. Nothing new there and it is a daily part of doing business and risk management. So what exactly is so special about the DRDO ?. Heck DRDO can never go bankrupt can they?. Okay, the Tejas could get grounded if you keep your risk open without doing something about it. But if you do take care of it, you should be fine to supplier disruption!

" So don’t compare the PRODUCTION of an engine where foreign components are a part of daily business with the DEVELOPMENT of an engine,"
What part of Bajaj DTSI,Tata DICOR, TDI, TVS Flame,Centra, Spectra, Victor, and the step thru they sell in Indonesia dont you understand ?. They are ALL developed in India (yeah, some do have consulting help from Ricardo, AVL etc)

" which is all about beating potential sanctions and retaining strategic autonomy."

Err. correct me if you know better. What strategic "autonomy" do you have when there is no flight worthy engine ?. Get the engine to work first!. How about that?
"
And finally, the priceless argument that going to a foreign consultant is only like asking a doctor for a second opinion. Mr Wiseacre, when you go to that doctor, be prepared to pull your pants down and expose yourself to the doctor in all your lack of glory. Don’t have any illusions about retaining any secrecy or copyright once you get in for a consultancy."

See, if you dont know better, keep your eyes and ears open and learn. Heard of something called NDA .. Yeah I know you will immediately think of "National Democratic Alliance", I am talking about Non Disclosure Agreements. Everyone signs it. Care is taken to make sure that your propreitary knowledge doesnt leak out to a competitor. Many consultants are even required to make sign up saying that they will not undertake similar work for competitors for a certain period.

And no, NDAs are no joke. They are fully complied with. If a consultant leaks info,he is out of business very very soon indeed , because everyone knows that they are not trustworthy. This is true of any such business, why dont you ask any of your media pals in Business Standard or NDTV Profit who have actually interacted with the McKinseys and Bains of the world.

And fact is GTRE has called EVERY engine maker in the world there is and shown them their current status (all under NDA of course).So the guys who REALLY are potential competitors know EXACTLY what the status and problem is with the engine. It is only the Indian public who has not been given the correct info. Really dont see what the point is, when everyone else knows. Enter journos like you who couldn't know the rear of an engine from it's front who are given half baked info to muddle even further and give out garbled info to the general public.

Anonymous said...

Re LM2500 vs Kaveri Marine, has it ever occured to you that one is a far bigger engine than the other?. So what is the point in comparing one engine for another. They are not substitutes!

Anonymous said...

Can some guru please clarify how this can be "Kaveri jet engine's first flight" when it has already been flown in Russia for similar tests earlier (Which I gather have failed)

Anonymous said...

Dr Mohana Rao’s statement cannot be equated with the earlier IGMDP statement, except by someone without an ounce of intellectual integrity. The IGMDP statement suggested that the IGMDP programme was a success, and was, therefore, being wound up

IGMDP was success?? akash, trushul comes to mind and the never ending trails of NAG with all the help from Israel, was wound up!!!

Anyway good to see development is Complete.

Wish LCA and Arjun to also complete soon, so that we save some good money going after bad investment.

Marijuana said...

Ajai Shukla - Tata Nano uses a gearbox DEVELOPED and BUILT by Kinetic India. Indian motorbikes (TVS, Bajaj etc) also used in-house developed and made gearboxes. What shit are you talking?

And there comes good ol' Shiv Aroor... he always pokes his nose into every cake and that's why his fate is such that he has to moderate comments in his blog - or else probably he will die of heartattack reading how everyone even his grandparents will blast him there.

even prasun sengupta (chorgupta) has a better repute although he about what he dreams off every night.

Prasun - anything to say about this Indian car/engine story?

AJAI SHUKLA - No heart feelings. I enjoy your blog over any other. But u clearly blundered with that statement that deserves this trashing.

and lastly, I and others spoke about companies supplying forgings and other metallic parts to engine manufacturers abroad in response to your comment doubting India has the metallurgy tech needed for engines.


p.s. better to have screen name as Marijuana than to smoke it and even jerk on it every night :-)

Anonymous said...

...intrusion of Shiv Aroor is not bad at all... but there comes the guy from the wild wild west - PORKISTAN.

Hey mr porki, try to perfect your Khatara Sitara (or SHITara) or Adam Ravo whatever before talking here.

And tell me just one thing in JF17 that is from Porkistan? Not even the screws. In that case I safely say SU-30MKI with IAF logo on it is INDIGENOUS INDIAN stuff because I can easily name you several components in in Developed and Made in India.


For those wondering what is SHITara, this is what it is:

http://abhishekdwivedi.blogspot.com/2008/01/introducing-sitara.html

Brilliant eh. Pretty sure everything that went into that one too is Chinese. Even the sluts sitting in it have a 'Made in China' chop on their butts.

Anonymous said...

Sitara - how do they even call that a car? they missed out the 't'. it's a cart.

Impressive sales record for a Paki co.: 60 carts in 5 years! That's over 1 cart in 2 months.

Even multi million $$ Boeings get sold faster

Anonymous said...

Interesting read.. On the whole, I can't fathom why people are comparing "Kaveri Engine" to "Car and Scooter and Bike Engines"..

Anonymous said...

Kirloskar is not manufacturing under license from any foriegn supplier so comparision to korput "assembly plant" is baseless.

Manu said...

Ajai,

Did you get a chance to ask GTRE about the status of development of the next generation of technologies, e.g. single crystal blades?

A foreign partner might help them with the development and testing effort, but it will never part with cutting edge technologies.

Vijay said...

Ajaiji,

Another great article from you! The work you are doing in highlighting the achievements of Indian defence labs in spite of their poor funding, whimsical customers, and lack of facilities and infrastructure is indeed admirable. But I fear you are plain wrong when you claim that no Indian automobile company has designed an engine from ground up. In fact, it is not a question of designing from the ground up, but one of evolutionary design.

To give you an example, Mahindra's common rail diesel engine (of which the Eagle and Hawk are evolutionary developments) was built after years of lessons learnt from the old workhorse - the MDI (Mahindra Direct Injection) engine and its design flowed from those lessons. Components like the engine block, cylinder heads, crankshaft, etc were all designed in India. The effort was spearheaded by the Integrated Design and Manufacturing (IDAM) team and the engine R&D group, with continuous inputs from Mico-Bosch, Part Development and Certification (PD&C), and experts from the engine testing/manufacturing/metallurgy/metrology units from Igatpuri, Nasik, and Kandivali. Even the engine control unit was designed in-house. Obviously, Mico-Bosch was a part of the cross-functional team. One cannot design a good engine independent of the injection system - it is not a stand-alone sub-system. The way the other components of the engine are designed has a major bearing on its performance, and therefore, Mico-Bosch has to be heavily involved in the design from the start. All auto-manufacturers do this, whether German, Japanese, or American. This is no reason to deny Indian companies their successes by labeling them as foreign.

And sir, the other critical sub-assemblies of the engine are all made in India by Indian suppliers under technology transferred to them by the auto company. Only the common rail injection system is foreign, and for good reason. Anon @ 07 September 2009 12:59 has explained this very well.

Even Bajaj designs its own engines. hasn't it patented the DTSi technology? How can it do so if the engine is not Indian?

FYI: Before some of the folks posting here jump on me, let me declare that I am neither an MBA gasbag nor an IT-Vity fellow. Just an old-school engineer who has had his share of excitement in the auto industry - been drenched in oil, covered with soot, spent hours on end negotiating terms with adamant union leaders and more hours doing their job just to prove to them that it could be done. I've even had the pleasure of knowing how it feels to have a 200kg die fall on my toe. :)

Prasun K Sengupta said...

To Marijuana@17:24: Only two questions/issues come to my mind: what's happening in MIDHANI regarding the attainment of core technological competency for fabricating the single-crystal turbine blades and the turbofan's core? And what's happening to plans for production engineering of these two items? It would be wrong to target GTRE for criticism when it is MIDHANI that should be hauled up for some critical lapses. No one, especially SNECMA Moteurs, will part with the know-hows and know-whys.

Prasun K Sengupta said...

To Anon@21:00: Check out Kirloskar's relationship with French engine manufacturer SEMT Pielstick.

Vijay said...

Ajaiji, in one of your posts you make the following point:

India’s auto sector is indeed a major manufacturing location for the world’s auto industry, but please, please, please… they don’t develop most of those components. And the ones that they do develop are at the component level, not at the level of systems. Indian manufacturers can develop a gear pinion, a gearshaft, but not a gearbox. See?

This is not entirely accurate. The companies that to such component level design (Menon Pistons of Kolhapur is one that comes immediately to mind) do not do so in a vacuum. The component is designed based on highly detailed specifications which are provided by the engine developer. And with good reason too - The design of these components affects and is affected by the design of the other components of the engine.

For example, a company that has been contracted to design a crankshaft for an engine cannot do so unless it knows the details of the engine (for stress analysis), piston and connecting rod (for balancing), the engine block (bearings) and oil sump (lubrication). Similarly, a piston is not easy to design, unless one knows the exact details of how the combustion of the fuel is supposed to happen. Therefore, most companies prefer to do the design of such components in house. if this is not possible or economically feasible, the design is outsourced. But even then, the engine developer is heavily involved in the process. And since the design has to be refined to iron out bugs that invariably arise during testing, a lot of design and test data flows back and forth between the main developer and the contractor (and even between the contractors themselves, if there is more than one). One cannot just order an engine component from a company and integrate it into the design.

Coming to your point about gearboxes - that is incorrect too. Indian auto manufacturers have developed several gearboxes in house and put them into production.

You also state that "the development of an [aeroplane] engine... is all about beating potential sanctions and retaining strategic autonomy". Here I fully agree with your view. But I wish to point out that the dream of strategic autonomy" is likely to remain a dream until we develop and manufacture the machine tools used to manufacture these engines in India. In my opinion, this is where we are still acutely vulnerable to foreign sanctions. All hi-tech machine tools we use in India, be they multi-axis CNC machining centres, high precision grinders, gear cutters, EDMs, are imported from Japan and Western nations. Other items, like sophisticated test rigs and precision sensors are also imported. This is not to say that we have zero indigenous capability, but the critical machinery comes from abroad with strict export-control regulations and end-user monitoring.

To become truly sanction-free, we will need to work towards indigenisaion of our machine tools too. Until that happens, claiming full strategic autonomy would be equivalent to pulling wool over our own eyes. We should be proud of the GTRE for providing India with a turbofan engine, as you pointed out, but there is much work to be done.

Ajai said...

Thanks, Vijay, for your informative and lucid intervention. If only everyone could argue like that...!

I'd be interested in discussing this further, but no point doing it here. If you can, plz email me at broadswordbs@gmail.com.

Prasun, Manu, I visited MIDHANI as well... let's say that they are on the job. As you know, single crystal blades and HP turbine metallurgy are the cutting edge and, at that level, progress happens slowly.

Aditya said...

Ajaiji,

A couple of years back there were reports of DRDO having fabricated SC blades at laboratory level. However they could not productionize it. Is this true. Perhaps you would know from your MIDHANI visit.

Anonymous said...

With the Chinkis fooling along our borders, we do need ultra long range supersonic cruise missiles.

DRDO should design a massive CM with 5T warhead around the Kaveri if they cannot find any other use for the engine. The Roosies did the same with retires Mig-17 & Mig-19 airframes in anti shipping role.

Marijuana said...

Prasun my dear, can u please see i am talking about car engine that our hallucinating Ajai shukla says India has no capability to build.

You are wholly right. India got no capability YET to build jet engine, or even turboprops. The examples I gave about metallurgy is in regards to car engines, which our Ajai says India doesn't have capability to build.

I think only now he is recovering from his daze, by recognising largely what Vijay says is correct (ie India has indigenous engine design capability, eg mHawk etc).

Give him a few days and he will knock his head on the toilet bowl after reading the crap he posted and the fool he made of himself.

Till then prasun don't get too emotional that ur buddy's being lambasted.

adios..


(pks - if u feel bored, pls contact Ajai. He has some pretty good stuff that really works)

Anonymous said...

Great job Ajay, thanks for letting us know about the engine's progress.
The intent of the article as i see it is satirical when he mentions that India has no capability of manufacturing engines.
I am surprised that India does not have the tools !!!, come of people, elect official who will get their heads out of their asses, give more importance to R & D and start making these tooling machines !.

A country of 1 billion slaves is indeed a great proposition to mankind

Prasun K Sengupta said...

To Marijuana: Am not being emotional or sentimental, but being objective, speaking of which the threshold (for wholly-built powerpacks for automobiles) was crossed way back in the 1960s and 1970s by India's Hindustan Motors and Premier Automobiles. I guess when Ajay was referring to the M & M Scorpio he was talking about powerpacks of an altogether different generation and these may well have been imported (from Renault, or other suppliers). And HAL too had designed and built the PTAE-7 turbojet for the Lakshaya PTA in the mid-1980s.
Now, coming back to the subject of Ajay's story, if you take a walk down memory lane, more than a year ago I had stated the same in both BROADSWORD and LIVEFIST, saying that the Su-30MKI's AL-31FP turbofans are being imported in semi-knocked down condition from Russia and are being licxence-assembled by HAL Koraput (the same's the case with the RD-33-3s for the to-be-upgraded IAF MiG-29B-12s). And as you very well know, at that time virtually no one was willing to believe what I had then stated.

Anonymous said...

prasun, the ambys from HM uses isuzu engines.

Marijuana said...

Wow, looks like Prasun too gotta dose!! Hindustan Motors and Premier Automobiles all used foreign engines. MHawk is not by renault for goodness sake.

The bottom line with your comments are, after beating round the bush, just wanna glorify yourself by talking what you said here and there ages ago now makes sense (RD-33 engine and stuff).

Please stick to the topic - which is about KAVERI engine and whether or not this stupid statement by that drugged-up Shukla makes sense: "...having produced a high-tech turbofan jet engine in a country that has never produced even a motorcycle or car engine"

If u can just drill some sense into your buddy it would be good.

If u want sense about what u said about Koraput or Kaput, then you got it.

Marijuana said...

where is that shiv aroor gay boy? after all the bravado...

Anonymous said...

08 September 2009 08:50

"be prepared to pull your pants down and expose yourself to the doctor in all your lack of glory. Don’t have any illusions about retaining any secrecy or copyright once you get in for a consultancy."

Use of Non disclosure agreement to restrict usage of confidential information by the receiver of information is quite common. Doesn't GTRE/DRDO use them?

Here is one from Boeing
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/doingbiz/bluebook/chapterI_IV/MD-7128.pdf

Anonymous said...

Prasun, technology acquired from Renault only went into the indirect injection engines used on the Bolero.

It hasn't been used again, AFAIK. The common rail engines are descendants of M&M's direct injection engines.

Anonymous said...

What about ISRO's rocket engines? Did/Do ISRO import the engines required for its rocket programs? I know the GSLV's engine are cryogenic and got from Russia.

Prasun K Sengupta said...

To Marijuana: you're the one that first went off-topic by ranting about car-engines and gearboxes instead of sticking to the topic (which you've rediscovered after gaining consciousness) of KAVERI. Looks like you more than anyone else need some drilling-in-depth done into your 'drugged-up' brains to get some semblance of a navigational fix!

To Anon@00:07: Prior to the cryogenic rocket motors from Russia, ISRO had bought the production technology of the Viking rocket motor from France SEP in the early 1980s and it was locally renamed as the Vikas.

Anonymous said...

shiv aroor gay boy

Wha? shiv aroor is gay? Tell us more...please

Marijuana said...

Why is it off topic Prasun Sengupta? Ajai Shukla wrote in the article about India being unable to produce car and bike engines, and later in his comment wrote about India's inability at current to develop the metallurgy tech needed for car components like engines and gearboxes. The 80 over comments are mostly in response to these silly statements. We are discussing, and trying to wake our drugged-up Shukla.

You on the other hand, from god knows where brag about some crap that, god knows when you wrote something about a Russian engine which apparently turns out to be true. This when in the article we're commenting about there is no mention at all about any Russian engine.

Prasun Sengupta: Now, coming back to the subject of Ajay's story, if you take a walk down memory lane, more than a year ago I had stated the same in both BROADSWORD and LIVEFIST, saying that the Su-30MKI's AL-31FP turbofans are being imported in semi-knocked down condition from Russia and are being licxence-assembled by HAL Koraput

You are just using this an avenue for self glorification and to prove points to some people.

If u still can't find that you're the one who's still in a daze not knowing why the better share of the over 80 commentators are talking cars and engines instead of Russian engines, then you seriously need rehab.


ps. Prasun Sengupta, i follow your Trishul blog too and some content there is least to say, very informative. But here you're driving up the wrong lane. Blame it on Ajai for sharing his secret-cigars with u.

Vincent said...

Buy 404s and forget about the Kaveri. Better yet buy 414s attached to Superhornets and forget about the LCA.

Point defence fighters are so yesterday.

Anonymous said...

vincent is a dirty cunt paki

Vincent said...

no I'm not. Keep listening to the russian snake oil and the snake oil of your non-visionary military leaders and flap your lungi and you'll be owned so bad in the next conflict even your tan will come off.

>>>
LOL, what a bunch of gullible fools you are.

Russia: "Hey India, buy my Gorshkov. Cheap and Russian naval tech is cheap yet comparable with the West."

Indian Navy: "OK. Let me pay first."

Russia: "Great, I will use this money to buy French carriers (Mistral)."

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4263284

Indian Navy: "wtf...."

Russia: "Don't worry. We still have great submarines. Here, lease some (Nerpa), buy some. They are comparable to Western tech for lower price."

Indian Navy: "...OK. Let me pay first as usual."

Russia: "Great, I will use this money to buy German submarines U-212."

Indian Navy: "WTF"

http://www.arms-expo.ru/site.xp/049051124049048055055051.html

lol, Russians must think Indians are the dumbest people in the world. Here is your best strategic partner selling you junk they won't even use.


Indian buying mentality:

1. Agree with Russia to supply naval arms which Russia claims to be equal to West..
2. Pay more than agreed after Russian fit.
3. Pay yet more than agreed, and agree to delay for fifth time. Price reaches Western models.
4. Find out that Russia is using Indian money to buy Western arms for its own use.
5. ???
6. Profit!!

You lot are gullble alright.<<<

Anonymous said...

Vincent has raised some valid points.Why Russia is buying French weapons if they themselves are good.Russia of today is different from USSR from 80's.Time for India to rethink it's arms procuremnt strategy.

Anonymous said...

I think you guys are taking out your frustration about Kaveri on each other. Please calm down! There is a symbiotic relationship between us Indians. So, any ankle-biting and degradation of your fellow Indians will also hurt you. Please be non-personal and civilized when making your comments, or else you will end up dragging each other in the gutter and having an irrelevant and non-productive dialogue.

Regarding Ajay’s statement about India having never produce a motorcycle or car engine, I think he was trying to make the point that India has taken a giant leap forward building Kaveri. So, please don’t hold that statement against him. For CLARITY purpose, he was (probably) exaggerating and not being nuanced.

BTW, I think Kaveri innards would turn to goo if they push it beyond 65 KN. Needs better materials.

Anonymous said...

vincent has raised NO points, let alone being valid.

we buy anything from any country as long as it fits our requirements.

what they buy from is none of our concern.

Anonymous said...

Bullshit, where do you get your requirements from, out of your ass? For decades, your requirements were based on your doctrine and operating experience, which were led mainly by Russian ships and salesmanship. You believed what they told you and they went around and banjoed you up the rear end. Some here still enjoy it, what a miserable scenario.

If Indian requirements can be satisfied by Russian ships, while Russian requirements are now only satisfied by Western ships, are you saying that Indian requirements, with its vast coastline, strategic location and commited enemies, are less than Russian requirements?

Bullcrap. You must be a member of the short-sighted Indian Navy. Booo.

Marijuana said...

Vincent, stop being such a nutcase. Mistrals are helicopter carriers not air craft carriers. can u suggest me who else will sell a fully built air craft carrier in the class of the on Russia's selling to India, let alone the price? which western country? USA? France?

And U212 is a fast attack diesel submarine, while nerpa is a nuclear powered SSGN. Now again tell me which ''western country'' will lease India a SSGN to India? USA? France? Germany?

You talk about payment first? I wanna know which defence manufacturer will go into billion dollar contracts without upfront payment? If there is any ''western'' manufacturer who will only accept payment after the product is delivered, let me know.

We know how the US swallowed Pakistan's money for promised and paid F16s and were further cutting throats by charging the Pakis ''parking fees'' for the sitting duck F16s. (although it serves them right)

Go and spew your snake oil crap to your granny not here.

And to straighten the record, yes Russia is behaving like a Monopoly - raising prices as it likes. But what else can anyone do as they are a monopoly in the trade of selling ACCs and leasing Nuke subs.

Vincent said...

oh dear, I feel like My Lord Jesus Christ against the pagan (Hindu) hordes.

Firstly, you're wrong in your rationalization of vessel types. What it really shows is that you're buying vessels, not just AC or nuke subs (leased), but also sub-ship systems, destroyers, sea-borne helicopters from a collapsing giant who can't even produce a helicopter carrier at a quality and sophistication to fit their own requirements. Do you know how ground shaking it is? If the Russians cannot design, build and outfit a helicopter carrier that they think will compete, what makes you think the Gorshkov refitted will be worth a damn when coming up against a sophisticated threat (esp those 29Ks)?

Secondly, it shows the incredible lack of foresight on the part of the Indian Navy to not factor the collapse of the Russian Navy and its industrial shipbuilding capabilities but just go stirring in the bargain bin for an old style Russian carrier. If the Soviet Union is still around, that could make some sense, in that they will have accrued operational experience on the type, but they don't even use that kind of ship and are building systems inside for your use based on theoretical thinking only! Even the Russians admit themselves their lack of understanding of modern large ship ops by buying a Western system and learning how to operate it, while India buys a Soviet Union system and expects to operate it the Western way and confront systems built on Western lines. Fail.

About the 212s didn't your country want to buy so called world class Amurs and Ladas, based on the recommendation of the Indian navy brass who were fed growing up on Russian ships? Now suddenly Russian SSKs are no longer good enough for Russia but still good enough for India?

Sure, every manufacturer wants upfront payments. But Russia is the only country where contracts don't mean shit and they always get their way with India. For the US, when they failed to deliver the MESA AEWACS to Australia, they swallowed the cost and kept to the contract. India is nothing more than a vessel junkyard or second hand car sales compound from the way your great strategic ally handles you.

who cares about the pakis, screw dem.

are you sure Russia is a monopoly? Lots of countries have built ACs. You could join the European consortium for one, with their new CVA. And to embark 12 harriers or 29ks, you could go for an American LPD design first instead of swinging your balls around with a faux big carrier. There are always options but as your admiral says, I love to bargain shop, Indian lives don't matter.

Cheap, cheap, cheap. My ships are cheap. Indian lives are cheap. Cheap, cheap, cheap.

Anonymous said...

Prasun Sengupta, please throw some much on this American worshipper of the sex maniac Christ who screwed poor prostitute Mary Magdalene

Marijuana, Shiv Aroor is Gay Boy? Explain. Worth knowing.

Prasun, good article as usual - but yea, the bone of contention raised here remains in my mind too.

Indian! said...

To all those who think India or DRDO has not developed a worthful cutting edge engine so far that you guys are wrong and it's time to update.

DRDO has developed a Wankel Rotary which will power Nishant

Shiv Aroor has also covered on the same in the past :

"The Wankel engine is first of its kind totally designed and developed in the country. Very few countries in the world have the capability to develop and master this technology. The provisional flight clearance for the first indigenous prototype engine was given by the certifying agency, RCMA in a short ceremony held at the launch pad. The engine was cleared for flight after a rigorous ground and endurance test run

The engine weighs about 30 Kgs, and is known for its high power to weight ratio in single rotor category. The engine performed very well in flight meeting all the requirements of the Air Vehicle. This indigenous engine is expected to replace the present imported engine of Nishant. The engine has a power of 55 hp and can also be used for powering smaller air vehicles, automotive, out board motors, and Industrial applications.

The event signifies an achievement in many ways like it is the first time that a wankel engine is developed with in the country and a UAV is flown with an indigenous engine. It is planned to use this developed technology for future application for the UAV's under development in ADE, Bangalore."

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/04/uav-nishant-flies-with-indian-wankel.html

So, don't get pissed we did nothing, we are trying and coming up with the best.

Anonymous said...

Why should I keep quiet when the Indian military and pundits behave like dirty animals?

Anonymous said...

It is good not be quiet. However, it would be BETTER if you can contribute in a helpful, civilized, and relevant manner.

Anonymous said...

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Shiv Aroor said...

Is he circumcised?

Anonymous said...

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Anonymous said...

Why not just use Kaveri in Trainer jets atleast

another face in the crowd said...

Come on.. spending all that money on a failed mission and an under performing engine? Is it logical? Burdening us tax payers with a DRDO failure...
OF course Yes.. I say put more money but like the private sector gives accountability to the expenditure and a deadline is something that should be adhered to, I think we have to do the same!
Unless we invest in these areas, I dont see us moving forward.. I say build more jets, send more space probes.. let's walk on the path to self reliance in technology.. this is what we are famous for.. Darwin said survival of the fittest.. The Weak will be fed by the NGOs and not the tax payer :).
But Please do build us something we can be proud of!!! some on guys..
We dont want our money wated on memorials and statues of some dalit leader.. let's spend it on a better cause..

Anonymous said...

They could have used the Il76 in IAF inventory to act as a mini or substandard way of testing the kaveri. this would have developed some new infrastructure for testing. heck Indian government dont have money for making high altitude flight testing facility in india, but it has money for buying 10 american Transport aircraft C-17, at the cost of 2.5Billion dollar!. corrupt MOD offcials. everything US is super fine, everything indian is bad.