Wednesday, 27 August 2008

Back from China. Coming up soon... updates and photos of India's helicopter programmes... the Dhruv, the LCH and the LOH.

79 comments:

Anonymous said...

Great!! looking forward to it..

Moneesh said...

Great!!! Looking forward to it...

Anonymous said...

Great!!! Looking forward to it...
;)

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Let me guess.. that fourth message was also the same.."Great!!!! Looking forward to it...."

Ajai, initially you were talking about a definite roadmap and many different derivatives of the ALH.. is it his article?

Joe said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Joe said...

Hey shukla, i'm not bluffing, it's true!! please don't remove my comment. I don't mean it in a nasty manner. That's why I used very civilised & dignified terms. Had I meant it in a negative sense, I'd have used derogatory terms instead. Please be more open. rgds.

Anonymous said...

^^^aahahahahaaa....

actually i wasn't expecting you post again. But i was surprised.

i laughed so hard, i have tears in my eyes man.
>:)

Anonymous said...

u c, i made people laugh.. n i erected somebody else's penis (i think)

Anonymous said...

u want me 2 use derogatory words? ok here we go: i'm so excited with this helicopter article that by dick steamed!!

Anonymous said...

anon@28 August 2008 00:58: i'm telling the truth. Shukla's a man, doesn't he have one too? by the way did the same happen for you?

ankur said...

joe u r really funny.. thanks 4 cheering me up mate!!!

Ajai is that what u deleted? common man.. the guy is cool..

Anonymous said...

hahahahahah! you are the first person to put a smile on my face.
:->>

Anonymous said...

intolerant shukla .....hmmmm aren't the commies intolerant in nature?

Broadsword said...

It's unfortunate that the open nature of the internet permits space to semi-developed idiots like the ones that are posting some of the messages that you can read above this one.

But the internet also shows up people for what they are. And your semi-literate posts make it clear that you're from backward and uneducated families, third class schools and probably mofussil towns in UP and Bihar.

It's also clear from the juvenile relish with which you hold onto words like "penis" and "dick"... that you've probably spent your youth drawing pencil figures of genitalia inside public lavatories.

So Joe... Ankur... and also those of you who have chosen to hide your backgrounds and your present under the convenient cloak of anonymity: go right ahead. Show us what you really are!

Anonymous said...

Give a man a mask and he will speak the truth - Oscar Wilde

Anonymous said...

When can be expect this article Ajai Ji?

Please publish it before LCH and LOH becomes operational!!

pranab said...

I second Ajai sir..
There are thousands of other sites to discuss these kind of stuffs n i m sure all these idiots will became respectable members there..
So please stop polluting this beautiful blog n go join ur comrades.

Fighterclass said...

ajai, kindly go easy on the UP and bihar stuff.

idiots come in all shapes and sizes from every corner of mother earth, and this kind of comments will show you in a light which is prejudiced and biased.
it may even harm your TV career if some of your competing channels notice it.

p.s. do you think people from moffussil towns would use the english terms ?????

god speed on the article. shiv promised one on this theme about 6 months back, it is yet to turn up !!

Harpreet said...

HAL had unveiled the LOH design almost 10 years back.They could have developed it for pure commercial reasons since there is a large international as well as domestic market for helicopters in this class.Had they shown some pro activism the armed forces wouldn't be waiting for imports today.

Ajay, can you verify if there is any proposal to integrate the Shakti engine with the LOH import candidates. This could be worked out since the cancellation of Eurocopter LOH tender has pushed back induction of imported machines by at least 2 years.

Anonymous said...

ohh.. big deal..

I'm cumming with my penis while Ajai is comming with his article.

Hurry up Ajai, I'm running out of cum. hahahah

Anonymous said...

relax shukla i never meant to offend anybody... if you find these offending, you got it.. i'll stop.

anonymous said...

Shiv don't degrade yourself by responding to kids like the above. I look forward to your article.

Satish said...

I'm eagerly looking forward for updates on LCH & LOH.

Can't wait to see the pic's.

Thanks in advance

Anonymous said...

Please make sure they are free pictures, would like to add in wikipedia. wikipedia article on dhruv has a bunch of screwed-up pictures

Anonymous said...

C'mon man where is it?????

Broadsword said...

Guys, give me a break... I have three whole careers outside of these pages!

Will do my damndest to make it happen during this week.

Anonymous said...

:) well you could have avoided putting up this "Coming soon" so soon then. Anyways, now you know we are an impatient bunch..

Problems acknowledged. Expecting article soon..

nil said...

In one of the article of a popular news channel, I read that the LCH is built on the Cheetah platform. From a layman's perspective Cheetah looks as much as a combat helicopter as the local bar where I go every Saturday.
Although, Cheetah has played its role gloriously for Indian armed force over the years.

Mr. Shukla,that is the reason people are restless to hear from you. Credible journalism is missing in India in this field.

Aapka bhanja said...

Shukla-ji, we await your pearls of wisdom: never mind your other careers!

max said...

@nil: To me the LCH looks pretty awesome! have a look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsNEEpGJQiE

and this picture of its mock-up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lch.jpg

By the way I stumbled upon this picture: http://lh5.ggpht.com/_S-dOsNxwIIk/R7vIrGTtcSI/AAAAAAAADCo/LWLwLAPoaj0/15.jpg ..which claims to be the LOH displayed by HAL. True?

Anonymous said...

^^ looking at the size of chopper and load its carrying, its nothing.

also optical turret is mounted on top which means pilot cant look down/back.

jeez... its not that hard to imagine

Anonymous said...

Ajai, What happened to the Arjun Tank? Why hasnt the minister / MOD responded to DGMF's intent on capping the Arjun Mark-1 at 124. What about the comparative trials? Any updates on the Mark II variant? specs..concept drawings etc etc.

Answer me please.

Anonymous said...

Weeks come and go, article doesn't..

Anonymous said...

Ajai, we know that you are busy. We all are waiting for those images. If not all, you can post a minimum of five images in five minutes.

Anonymous said...

Yo! Shukla man... you running on Indian standard time again... making promises and then taking an iternity to fulfil them... perhaps u shud go back to China, at least they run on time.

Anonymous said...

shukla remindes me of drdo.. they say: XXX system to be launched in 2008. Come 2008, all the excuses. finally it'll be launched in 2018. perhaps too much reporting on DRDO has made him like them!!

relax.. just pulling ur leg man.

Anonymous said...

anyway i heard that DRDO is to test their Exo-atmospheric ABM within "this month" (it was said last month, i.e. August).. Or perhaps they couldn't b'coz of Kashmir, Singur and Orrisa agitation as well as Bihar floods. That's the only excuse I can think of at this moment.

Anonymous said...

anon@21:04: Load it's carrying? Where did u c that? Are u dreaming? Anyway if it's frm Wikipedia, don't rely on the information. They are all wild guesses. IMO the LCH looks really futuristic (from the model). The LOK's tail fil looks superb too, but they could do better with the windshield.

Anonymous said...

China is a rising power Ajai. Just leave China alone. Better yet, let India do its own progress and not criticize the Chinese.

Sam said...

Dear AjaiJi

I respect the view that you post. But i would take offence to compare poeple of UP and Bihar as idot, must you remember that we had some of the finest leaders of yesteryears from these states it is though unfortunate that current day politicans have ruined these states. as far as semi-literate or full illiterate people like anonymous who uses words like penus can be found in all state and world....... No offece to anoymous. and Please try to respect the view of the author....

max said...

yes, model of LCH has a design flaw in the sense that the optical turret is mounted on the nose, rather than underneath (like all other choppers of this category, e.g. Mangusta, Apache, Rooivalk, EuCop Tiger). Having it on top limits the capability of the sensor looking down (just where the enemies usually are) and behind. I hope there's a logic to what HAL did, or hope it's redesigned. For that, we gotta await Ajai.

Fighterclass said...

max, that's to save weight. mounting over the nose requires lesser strengthening of the structure than under.
the aspects that would be blind spots which you mention are true but not that important.
reorienting the LCH would take about the same time as moving the sensor ball !
this is a very agile bird we are talking about ! and it is being built mainly for our beloved chinis!!!
___________________________________
@ anon at 00:09
sure, people said the same about the country which hosted the 1936 olympics. that nation, like china had hosted an event that was unmatched in scope, magnificence and of course, expenditure !!

all this "future world power" and stuff was also being parroted by people like you back then !
and guess what, it also led the medals tally that time, just like china did this time !!

which country, and who was the ruler ?? google for it to know !! ;)

max said...

Thanks fighterclass for your explanation, I understand what u mean. Are u sure it's made for the Chinks? I thought more the Pakeees

Fighterclass said...

well, yes and no.
of course IA strike corps will use them against PA but the IAF specs are for a bird that can operate comfortably (relatively speaking) at 20k feet with a small but significant load carrying ability -- around 1tonne.

NO attack helo in the world has this ability. a fact that hampered IAF participation in op safed sagar during kargil as the mi-35 can't operate at those heights.
the apache for example barely crossed a 20k feet feature in afghanistan, w/o any arms.

considering that tibet averages around 4000 m above SL, LCH would be invaluable in case of a conflict.

if you are interested in this stuff, please check vivek ahuja's posts on BRF on this issue. FWIW,he is an aero engn.

Anonymous said...

pls sir looking forward for the updates very impatiently

Anonymous said...

Ajai's articles hit by delays.

4 Sep 2008, 1930 hrs IST,AGENCIES

This article, sanctioned in 8-08 is still to be published. Although similar articles take 2 or 3 days to compile, this article was hit by foreign sanctions and was delayed for unknown period.

When contacted, Ajai said "This is the first time we are attempting such an article and it takes years of research to produce it. Others are in this business for years. But we must remember I am attempting to write such article for the first time. We cannot specify fixed time period for such articles."

He later added "I have also floated tenders for foreign partners to complete this article. We have not set the deadline to 2010."

Anonymous said...

Ajai, please dont mind the above article. I posted it just as a joke :)

Sam said...

any news on the howtizer deal for the IA. seems the contact is pulled out.

max said...

Anon@04 September 2008 20:31: That was good, really.

@Fighterclass: Upon more pondering, I wonder how would the pilot look what's directly below him (during level flight) when the optical turret has a blindspot it those areas? It's not only utilised during attacks. Rather than beneath, they should have followed the AH-1Z's design. Looks more practical. Can see beneath even during ascending flight. Have a look a the picture at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AH-1Z_NAWCWD.jpg

And another thing, don't you think the engies are underpowered? 1,200 shp Shaktis are the lowest rated in class. All other AHs have ~1800 shp.

Anonymous said...

I think the wait's been long enough Mr. Shukla.

max said...

fighterclass, another thing; is China's WZ-10 as capable as you say for the LCH?

Where can I find Vivek Ahuja on BRF? Tried googling, no results. Please provide the url.

Fighterclass said...

wz-10 is unknown quantity.
it is not even known if it exists at all !! there have been NO confirmed sightings as of now. ALL news we have on it are from chinese fansites. no govt announcement, no nothing.

yes, LCH won't be able to look immediately underneath. but that is not a position where a helo is supposed to attack.
do check the arrangement on other attack helos, which of these would be able to fire underneath, even if they can see it ?? ;-)
do tell me !!

btw,why do you think LCH will be underpowered ?? please post the names of helos which you think has better power to weight ratio than LCH and I'll try to answer.
please state BOTH engine power AND max T/O wt.

regarding vivek ahuja, do you know what BRF is ??
try http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewforum.php?f=3

@ ajai shukla: I know you have no love lost for BRF, so here goes my apologies in advance.

Divine said...

Dear Ajai,
Please post a deadline by when you expect to post this topic. Also works for the frequent announcements that you make. It will prevent a lot of heartburn amongst people who log on in anticipation.

Regards

Anonymous said...

Ajai is probably stuck thinking how long you nameless nutcases can go on commenting on a "Coming up soon..." message. Forget it, it is not going to come.

Whether he is or not, I am having fun watching all u anony-mouses shedding your frustration, pervertion and foolishness here...bring it out boldly, your true self, hiding behing that name "Anonymous"

max said...

Fighterclass, looking down doesn't necessarily mean to launch an attack (i.e. fire directly down from level flight). It's just to gather what's directly below the chopper at level flight, and if needed, descent and launch an attack. Sadly, LCH cannot perform this. For LCH, it seems that the chopper would have to be flown at a tilted angle all the time (cockpit down, tail up) to see what's below. Remember, the pilot depends on the optical turret to pinpoint accurately what's below. Unless of course our pilots have eagle's eyes which can pin point targets from 20,000-odd feet up!

For engines, here are some examples. Ka-50: 2x 2,226 shp, 10,700Kg . AH-64 Apache: 2x 1,800 shp, 9,500kg. Denel AH-2 Rooivalk: 2x 2,300 shp, 8,750 kg.

Can't compare as I don't know LCH's max TO weight. Only know Shakti engine power as 1,200 shp. Wikipedia says 5,500 kg. Perhaps its speculation.

Oh, Bharat Rakshak. I know. Thanks for the link. Has Ajai a problem with BR?

max said...

The other thing I realised is all helicopters in its class / era are equipped with 30mm turret while this only has a 20mm nexter. Although its firing velocity is better, can it compensate the damage a 30mm slug can cause?

max said...

HURRY UP SHUKLA. over 1 week and still waiting.. you should refrain fro putting up such *coming soon* notices in future if it's not gonna come *soon*. *Soon* means in a short period of time. If 1 week+ is a short period for you to just compile a simple article, I wonder why we condemn DRDO who also uses *soon* but doesn't honour it to our expectations. They said some 2 or 3 weeks back they were to test the exo-atmospheric ABM *soon*. 3 weeks past, no test.

Anonymous said...

anon@05 September 2008 06:49: don't u contribute 2 it?

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 05 September 2008 06:49

Sure I do, but that was the point. I just wondered how there is so much conversation around an empty non-post :)

Good that none of us is a journalist. The media industry is already too sensationalized - with all emotions and opinions (than facts and news).

May be Ajai thought it is a good thing to let us know in advance of a post - we all saw the effect of that. One thing is certain, lot of name-less net-vaasis(including me) who are also jobless.... blah blah blah....

fighterclass said...

looking down doesn't necessarily mean to launch an attack (i.e. fire directly down from level flight). It's just to gather what's directly below the chopper at level flight, and if needed, descent and launch an attack. Sadly, LCH cannot perform this. For LCH, it seems that the chopper would have to be flown at a tilted angle all the time (cockpit down, tail up) to see what's below. Remember, the pilot depends on the optical turret to pinpoint accurately what's below. Unless of course our pilots have eagle's eyes which can pin point targets from 20,000-odd feet up!
_________________________________________________
max, attack choppers are never designed to look at targets from 20k up in the sky.they are never supposed to fly high up in the sky and swoop down to attack targets.

these are designed to do "nape of the earth flying" at less than 100 m from the surface. stealth is absolutely necessary for a helo, especially an attack helo to survive in the battlefield. otherwise it flies too low and slow to survive SAMs.
and, in that case a helo is supposed to acquire targets (mainly vehicles and hardened structures) in front of it,hide behind a raised structure, pop up to fire a missile or a rocket and get back behind the structure.
there are almost no situations in which an attack helo will have to fire at a target immediately below it.
if it does, that would mean the pilot has goofed up and hasn't picked up the target in time !!

Nil said...

I'm not going to reply to this post.
All those 'anonymouss' who just keep on posting for another post, you are too dumb to understand that its a blog - a personal blog.
Mr.Shukla has all the right to post whenever it suits him.
If its not soon enough you can always troll some other site or shove your...
into your own as...

fighterclass said...

max said:
For engines, here are some examples. Ka-50: 2x 2,226 shp, 10,700Kg . AH-64 Apache: 2x 1,800 shp, 9,500kg. Denel AH-2 Rooivalk: 2x 2,300 shp, 8,750 kg.

Can't compare as I don't know LCH's max TO weight. Only know Shakti engine power as 1,200 shp. Wikipedia says 5,500 kg. Perhaps its speculation.
___________________________________
I'm posting engine power in kW and MAX T/O wt in kg for commonality.
First let us do a simple power/mass
calculation to find out which helo is underpowered. (this is by no way indicatory of total aerodynamic performance but would still be the most important factor)

HELO WT TOTAL-ENGN-PWR PWR/WT
____ __ ______________ ______
AH-64 9500 2*1490=2980 0.3137
mngsta 4600 2*664=1328 0.289
tiger 6000 2*873=1746 0.291
ka-50 10800 2*1660=3320 0.307
ruivlk 8750 2*1716=3432 0.392
ah-1z 8390 2*1340=2680 0.319
mi-28 11500 2*1450=2900 0.252
********************************
LCH 5500 2*900=1800 0.327
********************************

the LCH, UNDERPOWERED, eh ? you must be joking ? :-D
rest easy dude, this fella' has the best pwr2wt ratio of all except the rooivalk(of which only 12 were ever built) !

secondly, note that the 5.5t figure is about half a tonne on the higher side(5.5 tonne is just the wt of the ALH reproduced on an info board)
and lastly, ALH's engine would retain much of it's maxpower at the low density atmosphere of the high altitudes, unlike other engines, because it would be fine tuned to that purpose. it's like the reverse of "flat-rating" for jet engines that you hear about.

fighterclass said...

max said...

The other thing I realised is all helicopters in its class / era are equipped with 30mm turret while this only has a 20mm nexter.
___________________________________
not true:
ah-64:30mm
mangusta:20mm
tiger:30mm in french version. no chin mounted gun in german version,uses podded 12.7mm or 20mm.
ka-50:30mm
rooivalk:20mm
ah-1z: 20mm
mi-28:30mm
mi-25:12.7mm
mi-35:23mm
........................
so you see a lot of both older and newer helos do use the lower calib guns.
do note that the commanche also used a 20mm cannon.

One of the main reasons is that at around 5 tonnes, a 30mm gun firing in auto mode would have tremendous recoil, enough to seriously destabilize the craft.

all the helos with more than 20 mm cannons are much heavier than the LCH, in the medium to heavy class. those can handle the recoil better than a light bird like LCH could.
___________________________________
max said...

Although its firing velocity is better, can it compensate the damage a 30mm slug can cause?
___________________________________
of course, a 20mm slug would have lesser damage but the question is what type of targets do you intend to use it upon ?
"BOTH" can shred thin skinned vehicles but is 30mm enough to incapacitate an armoured vehicle ?
hardly !
so what is the use of a heavier 30mm round (which you would carry a much lower number of) if all you are going to do with it is shoot at personnel ! worse, it would also give you a bad recoil to boot !
the 20mm does the same thing without a recoil and you would also carry many more of the stuff !

of course, if you mean that the sheer devastation of the 30mm is unmatched in badness, I'm all with you !!

max said...

wow that was excellent fighterclass.. i can't argue with you further. You've really got extensive knowledge on this stuff..

Thanks..

max said...

fighterclass, i don't seem to find the discussion on LCH on BR. Can you please provide the exact URL of that discussion?Thanks.

fighterclass said...

max, if you are a member you can just select "view user's posts" from vivek ahuja's profile.

if not you have to go about it in a round about way, just look into the china military watch threads -- both the archived and the new one and also the war in tibet threads.

cheers !

Anonymous said...

TO ALL INDIAN USERS, IMPORTANT!

There is an ongoing war in Wikipedia regarding an article called "Pakistan occupied Kashmir" with Paki Wikipedians requesting it's deletion. This is because the article is claimed by them as "not neutral point of view". The article is now up for deletion after. Please show your support to keeo this article by voting for it. Type *'''Keep'''- followed by your message. You must however have had a reputable Wikipedia account for voting or it won't be counted. Thanks.

The voting page is loacted at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Pakistan_occupied_Kashmir

The article in question is available http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_occupied_Kashmir

Mod, please delete after 2 days.

Anonymous said...

they want it deleted so everyone must only direct to AZAD KASHMIR page. So we have to vota "Keep"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Pakistan_occupied_Kashmir

fighterclass said...

FWIW, aroor has beaten the retreat and has reverted to censorship on his blog !

this is what I get :
"Your comment has been saved and will be visible after blog owner approval."

so much for demand of freedom of speech from media people of the likes of aroor, they can't even handle honest criticism !

max said...

yup, i've also complained (pls see some former posts in his blog) but he seems to be pretty fickle minded. Sometimes moderation is on, sometimes it's off. He claims that people are "defaming" people close to him (e.g. friends, family) in the comment form. Although I've not seen any.

Anonymous said...

TO ALL INDIAN USERS, IMPORTANT!

There is an ongoing war in Wikipedia regarding an article called "Pakistan occupied Kashmir" with Paki Wikipedians requesting it's deletion. This is because the article is claimed by them as "not neutral point of view". The article is now up for deletion after. Please show your support to keeo this article by voting for it. Type *'''Keep'''- followed by your message. You must however have had a reputable Wikipedia account for voting or it won't be counted. Thanks.

The voting page is loacted at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Pakistan_occupied_Kashmir

The article in question is available http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_occupied_Kashmir

Mod, please delete after 2 days.

Broadsword said...

Hi Guys!

I appreciate your impatience, but the reason why the article is not up is a pretty mundane one. Let me explain.

I sent the articles --- it's a three-part series on India's helicopter building plans, of which the LCH is Part 2 --- to Business Standard on Thursday. But they want to carry the series on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

So, alas, I can't post it on the blog until they carry it. It'll come up tomorrow morning. And to make up for all the waiting that you had to do, I"ll post some pics of the Dhruv on which they are doing the Weapons Systems Integration (WSI).

For those who are justifiably irritated at having to log on repeatedly for an article that just never seems to come... I would suggest that you activate the "alert" facility, which will send you an email whenever I post an article.

But then, you would miss out on all the high-quality interventions and comments that I am reading above. Thanks, all, for that.

Ajai

Broadsword said...

To add to what fighterclass posted above on the choice between "adequate damage" versus "near-assured destruction" --- which is what the choice between 20 mm and 30 mm actually boils down to --- please remember that choosing a lighter turret gun also allows a higher rate of fire.

So you have a higher hit probability with a 20 mm gun, not just because of the lower recoil; you're also pumping out more lead... even if they are in smaller pieces!

And you can carry more rounds on board in straight numerical terms.

Remember, most armies the world over have switched from personal weapons that fired 7.62 mm ammunition to 5.56 mm for similar reasons. "Adequate damage" is damage enough.

Anonymous said...

fighterclass is Rahul M from Bharat Rakshak! the dimwit accidentally commented without choosing to be anon/fighterclass. so in the interests of transparency, dodo fighterclass is actually rahul m from BR!

Anonymous said...

TO ALL INDIAN USERS (esp. Wikipedians), IMPORTANT!

There is an ongoing war in Wikipedia regarding an article called "Pakistan occupied Kashmir" with Paki Wikipedians requesting it's deletion. This is because the article is claimed by them as "not neutral point of view". The article is now up for deletion after. Please show your support to keeo this article by voting for it. Type *'''Keep'''- followed by your message. You must however have had a reputable Wikipedia account for voting or it won't be counted. Thanks.

The voting page is loacted at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Pakistan_occupied_Kashmir

The article in question is available http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_occupied_Kashmir

Mod, please delete after 2 days.

fighterclass said...

Anonymous said...

fighterclass is Rahul M from Bharat Rakshak! the dimwit accidentally commented without choosing to be anon/fighterclass. so in the interests of transparency, dodo fighterclass is actually rahul m from BR!

07 September 2008 20:17
____________________________________

welcome to the paki !

fighterclass said...

WSI dhruv images would be superb. we have had no updates on it since the first flight.
take your time ajai, but do a thorough job please.

fighterclass said...

@ anon 20:17

brother, do you realize that ANYONE can take ANY name on a blog comments section ?
somebody can post here as manmohan singh if he wants to, won't mean MMS is actually posting here would it ?

my last words on whether I'm rahulm or not.
please continue getting your undies in a knot ! it's marginally entertaining.