Saturday, 26 July 2008

Catchovsky-22: The scandal that is the T-90



















On 22nd and 23rd July, tank experts from across the world gathered in Delhi. The occasion was a seminar --- organised by the Indian Army’s Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF) in partnership with the Confederation of Indian Industry (CII) --- aimed at advising the Indian Army on how best to go about designing its next generation of armoured vehicles: the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) and Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV). Despite two years of labour, the army’s tank directorate, the DGMF, has failed to decide on a suitable design.

As many of these experts told me, on condition of anonymity, the DGMF’s problems lie in its decision to start designing an MBT all over again. Instead of building on two decades of experience gained while designing the indigenous Arjun tank, perhaps by framing the requirements for an advanced version of the Arjun, the army is going back to the start line.

Experts at the seminar --- including Israeli tank legend, Maj Gen Yossi Ben-Hanan, who designed that country’s successful Merkava tank --- pointed out that tank design is evolutionary, each design building upon the previous one. The Israelis began designing their Merkava-1 MBT in 1970; today they have the world class Merkava-4. The US Army put all their World War II experience into designing the M-47; that led, through the M-48 and the M-60, to the successful M-1 Abrams design. The Russians started in 1940 with the T-32 tank; the great tank battles on the Eastern Front during the Second World War saw the T-32 fathering the T-54. That led to the T-55; the T-72 followed, which was further refined to today’s T-90.

India, like many religious fundamentalists, has rejected the theory of evolution. The Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE) in Chennai, which has designed the Arjun, is now offering an improved Arjun-2 with more modern electronics. But last month, the army’s top tank-man, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj, trashed two decades of indigenous design work on the Arjun; he declared that the army would buy just 124 Arjuns for its 4000-tank fleet.

On 23rd July, Maj Gen Yossi Ben-Hanan warned the audience, “A decision taken today to build an Indian tank will yield an MBT only 15 years hence.”

And so, for the next15 years, while India grapples with a fresh design and fresh design problems, Russia will fill the Indian inventory, just as it has for the last 35 years. Frustrated army procurement manages point out that Moscow has flagrantly violated the February 2001 contract to supply India with 310 Russian-built T-90s and then transfer the technology, materials and components to build another 1000 in India. Seven years after that contract was signed, not a single T-90 has rolled out of Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) Avadi, where they are to be built. Senior MoD sources explain that Russia has failed to provide the critical technologies and components needed for T-90 manufacture.

Russia has not been sued for this breech of contract; instead it has been rewarded. Last December, India ordered 347 more fully built T-90s, at prices far higher than the first batch. (I understand that the first 310 T-90s cost India about Rs 9 crores apiece; the second batch of 347 T-90s will cost Rs 14 crores each, an escalation of over 50%) But most crucially, the December 2007 contract for 347 T-90s will delay the indigenous manufacture of T-90s even further, since the Russian plant cannot transfer any components or materials until it meets the fresh Indian order.

A furious official from HVF Avadi calls it “the perfect Catch-22 situation.”

Meanwhile, the 310 T-90s, which have been delivered by Russia and introduced into service, are far from battle worthy. The crucial tank Fire Control System (FCS), especially the Thermal Imaging Sight, through which the crew aims and fires at the enemy, has failed to function in Indian summers. An obliging Russian industry body, Rosoboronexport, offered to sell India “tank air conditioners”, even though no other tank in our inventory needs or uses air-conditioning.

The Russian air-conditioners were put through trials, which were a miserable failure. The driver of the trial tank fainted from heatstroke. Now the MoD has floated a global tender for air-conditioning the T-90s, as well as the T-72s which have functioned without air-conditioners for the last 29 years.

Meanwhile, the new Arjun production line at HVF Avadi has already churned out close to 70 Arjun tanks. They like there uncollected, even as the rate of production is quickening. The army continues to stonewall the Defence R&D Organisation’s (DRDO’s) pleas for comparative trials between the Arjun, the T-90, and the near-obsolescent T-72. The Arjun has successfully completed Phases IV and V of the Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) which finished last month, during which the Arjun’s electronics worked flawlessly, without any air-conditioning.

But the DGMF is sticking to its guns; the army refuses to accept more Arjuns.

140 comments:

Anonymous said...

Now that the commie (comic ?) characters like Karat and company have been consigned to oblivion, the govt can get its act together. Here is a 3 step solution to solve the Arjun problem:-

STEP 1 - Sack Lt.Gen Bhardwaj for being the chief anti Arjun propagandist, and reprimand the army chief for not keeping Bhardwaj in check.

STEP 2 - Cancel the incremental order for 347 T(in)-90 tanks.

STEP 3 - Order 376 additional Arjun tanks to take the total figure for Mark - I to 500. Start research on Mark - 2 with major subassemblies like powerpack, transmission, gun, turret etc to be developed by the private sector, be the need in JV with foreign companies like RheineMetall, Renk, MTU etc. Remember, the TATAs , M&M, L&T do wish to enter defence production in a big way. Just give them a chance.

But please please please do sack Bharadwaj. The army must support the Arjun Tank project, if this nation is to ever develop tank design expertise.

Remember, no military can be great, if all it uses is foreign weapon systems.

not an anon said...

Ajai, it is good that Army trying to improve work place conditions by fitting air conditioning for tanks.

Is there any hidden reason for denying Arjun but not going public ? Probably, Army doesn't want to destroy the Arjun export opportunities....

Anonymous said...

transfer the technology, materials and components to build another 1000 in India

So vague the statement is, without knowing what technology or material or components for different parts offered in the contract. Gun maybe a component or material without disclosing the makeup of it for the Russians but for india it is materails know how and full casting technology.


especially the Thermal Imaging Sight, through which the crew aims and fires at the enemy, has failed to function in Indian summers.


You mean the french thermal failed in the heat. Right?

The Russian air-conditioners were put through trials, which were a miserable failure. The driver of the trial tank fainted from heatstroke.

Let me get this straight, The driver fainted coz of russian AC malfunctioning, without AC the drivers seems to be ok for the last 29 years

the new Arjun production line at HVF Avadi has already churned out close to 70 Arjun tanks.

you fail to mention, 70 tanks for the last 8 years??

The Arjun has successfully completed Phases IV and V of the Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) which finished last month,

Is it not the army rejected Arjun coz of their failure in the said tests???

At least that is what reported in the media and parliament.

sandeep said...

This is even bigger then the bofors scandal. And to my anonymous. Please be prudent in ur observation, from the past what i have heard about arjun is that it is battle worth and it can be put to us in a war. I dont know why is the army rejecting our own effors rather then sticking to the krap russion junk of tin,

Anonymous said...

Another bloody Russian Agent

sandeep said...

to mr anonymous.
Plese have ur mental balance checked out, If you want i can sponcer your treatment.

Anonymous said...

Post some of these prospective arms dealers cum high ranking army officers in LoC, Pakis will take them out by unprovoked firing. These suckers are responsible for high Kargil causalities instead of calling for air strikes in initial phases. Even if there is any iota of truth in complaints against Arjun, it is their(army's) responsibilities to interface with R&D and iron out the problems in phases. If one bloodly component doesnt work, we could outsource that particular thing and find an indigenous replacement some time in the future. Either way u look at indigenization process, the armed forces are clearly fuked it up big time. Look at pak sucess..they dont even have an R&D worth its name..they have grossed 300mil dollars of arms export this year i guess...

Anonymous said...

I thought whatever failure was caused in the tests for due to wear & tear and usage beyond designed life of components rt?

I agree with Anon 1. Major private players should build their own set of sub-contractors and align into design conglomerates. Like LMartin and Boeing competing for same project. We will get quality products for money, if not for national interests.

With our growing closeness with Uncle Sam, the only real option is to develop things in-house. Anything else doesn't provide strategic independence. Forget the idea of becoming a superpower if you trust foreign brains, products and policies than you own.

Anonymous said...

Why only Imported tanks, we should have imported generals ! If Indian scientists are bad, indian generals cannot be too far !

Anonymous said...

Isn't there a way to sue the Army for compremising the security of the country by opting for faulty T-90s and not considering the Arjun-2s.

Aditya said...

Ajai:

Well put. It is rather disgusting that the IA (and the IAF) are this short sighted when it comes to promoting indigenisation of weaponry. Europe doesn't mind the Typhoon with only Air-to-air, the original Gripen was underpowered, the original Tomcats were too (not to mention a bad engine...).

No! But we want perfection from the word go! And phoren maal is besht!

Idiots.

"India, like many religious fundamentalists, has rejected the theory of evolution."

Brilliant. Love the analogy.

Anonymous @ 18:05:

"Let me get this straight, The driver fainted coz of russian AC malfunctioning, without AC the drivers seems to be ok for the last 29 years"

If you used a couple of brain cells, you'd get it. Tanks designed without ACs will be designed for ventilation. Tanks designed with ACs will not have ventilation/circulation features. AC fails, the tank becomes an oven.

"70 tanks for the last 8 years??"

If the army moved the goalposts less often, the manufacturer would have delivered far more.

Pritam said...

I don't know how much money the Army Generals and MoD officials and above all our corrupt officials got but this will be a disaster for the young Indian scientists who want to join any Govt research lab or say DRDO!

Russians are the most corrupted in defence deals and using agents to win the deals..

Navy personal killed after he rejected to accept a Russian junk

Klub-S missile fire from newly upgraded submarines failed every time!

Many systems and navigation system not working in the newly bought Krivak-3 frigates

Blackmailing through Gorshkov, wants $1.2 bilion extra!

PAK FA deal: $ 5 billion for R&d though the aircraft will fly next year!

and many others..

They are trying hard... not to lose its biggest arm buyer.. India...

Pritam said...

Ajaiji great great article. Its not DRDO, not Indian Army, not GoI, we are talking about Indian tax payers, Indian scientists and India's future technology advances...

Mihir said...

Col. Ajai writes: Russia has not been sued for this breech of contract

Once a soldier, always a soldier. LOL!

:P

Anonymous said...

after how much time, india would learn to believe herself, can anyone name any recent defence deal with foreign country whichis not put under the scanner for possible
fraud..

Anonymous said...

the level of corruption that the IA is now displaying is sickening..Despite a Minister of State publicly stating that the Arjun tank trials were sabotaged, nothing's been done about it to investiage the matter. This Lt.Gen Bharadwaj must be sacked immediately and made an example of-corruption in the military need to be rooted out, else one of India's finest institutions will be flushed down the tube.

TheTruth said...

The DRDO stooges are so obviously vocal, scathing and insulting. If only they could channelize all this energy in actually working rather than touting their third rate stuff by the expedient of shouting from rooftops about its quality and making wild allegations about all and sundry. They are so obviously incompetent that they have not been able to design a decent piece of equipment for the past 50 years, and get along by reverse engineering or outright theft of technology.

Since offence is the best form of defence, they have suddenly become vociferous and have gone on an offensive.

Why should the army accept a tank which they are not satisfied with? Quality speaks for itself, and in that respect the Arjun so far has been dumb as a dodo. When all else fails, they go to ridiculous extremes such as alleging 'sabotage'. If there was even an iota of truth in such tall tales, why hasn't the minister who came out with this statement ordered an enquiry? Making allegations is the easiest thing in the world, and if the army can be considered to be on the russian payrolls, can't the DRDO be on the payrolls of the Germans, French and others who are providing the engine and other components of our 'indigenous' tank. Isn't it true that the DRDO receives huge kickbacks from such vendors?

As far as the delay in T 90s being produced in India, what role does the army have in that? Isn't it the DRDOs equally lethargic cousin, the Ordnance Factories, which have to produce them (and are, incidentally, under the same minister who has made these allegations). And who is responsible for drafting, negotiating and implementing contracts? The army? Think again - it is the ministry and 'experts' which infest organisations like DRDO and Ordnance Factories.
Before asking for any general's resignation, how many people from DRDO have ever been sacked (or even held accountable) for the delays in each and every program that has been undertaken? Or for costs overrn for that matter? With the amount of money we have wasted in this WHITE ELEPHANT called DRDO, we could have equipped ourselves many times over. And what has been the end result of the indigenisation? What is the indigenous component of the Arjun? If you have to import parts and assemble them and then call it an indigenous tank, why not import a properly designed tank itself?
So, the intelligent(?) people from DRDO who abound forums such as this would be well advised to stop wasting their time and try and do some worthwhile work for a change.

Anonymous said...

Mr Truth,
Are you even aware of Arjun's development history ?

The army wanted a 60T class tank because the Pakis were considering buying the Abrams.

DRDO started designing the tank. Goalposts were shifted several times by revised GSQRs, re-revised GSQR, re-re-revised GSQR and so on.

Finally we have a world class tank. Exactly according to the GSQR and now the army comes back and says the tank does not fit its needs ! Who wrote the GSQR in the first place ?

As you said, quality speaks for itself. Except when quality is tied to a chair, gagged and legs broken by the army when they refuse comparative trials between the Arjun and T90.

How many parts of Arjun as imported ? Kanchan armor is locally developed, so is the gun, so is IGMS, tracks, suspension and design. Only the engine and transmission is imported from MTU and Renk, because of economies of scale. The french LeClerc has engine by Wartsila (finland), transmission from Renk. British challenger has engine from Perkins (US), and American abrams has a gun from Rheinmetall (germany). Israeli Merkava has engine from MTU (Germany) and transmission from Renk. Maybe you should rip a comment or two about the inability of french, british, american and and israeli defense companies to make their own engines, transmissions and guns.

You do make a valid point that the import content is embarrassing (notwithstanding the import content of contemporary western tanks. We do after all, have a bigger pride). Maybe the solution is to import a "properly designed" tank itself.

Except if you had paused to read Shukla-ji's article, you would have noticed that T90's sight is from france, keeps failing and the tank is not "properly designed" and the ever helpful russians are offering to fit ACs in them !

Do you even know who Shukla-ji is ? You might want to check that up before calling him a DRDO stooge.

Anonymous said...

why can't someone take duh generals to court? cud a PIL be filed in SC to make them do comparative trails btw T-90 & Arjun MBT ? or maybe a RTI route be simpler ?

Anonymous said...

The Arjun takes a direct hit from a properly designed imported tank and remains intact and someone calls Arjun an improperly designed tank. A jawan faints inside a properly designed (for russia) tank. The barrel of the properly designed imported tank bursts. The properly designed tank is also night blind.
So much so for a "PROPERLY DESIGNED IMPORTED TANK".

Best trial is to have the DGMF ride on his T90 while Arjun takes a shot of its APFSDS on the T-90, in desert heat at maximum gun range with both tanks on the move all design issues will become crystal clear.
No need to CRYSTAL GAZE with the Indian tax payers money.

As an aside the winter trials of the improperly designed tank fails but when a "box like thing" is installed the summer trials go without a single problem

It seems Renk transmission system which is designed in a colder European country is more prone to fail in winters than in summers. Seems strange & surprising.

Anonymous said...

Why a/cs sir ? We desis don't need so much comfort. We can install water coolers on the TIN SCRAP-90. SASTA, SUNDER and TIKAAU DESI JUGAAR. But the desi army mechanized base workshops (or should I say glorified garages) can't even do that, never mind the "CRYSTAL GAZING"

Anonymous said...

DRDO should now start a new FMBT program called "DRAUPADI" She handled 5 husbands in her lifetime, maybe just maybe she may be able to satisfy the wild fantasies of all the army generals cooling their butts in their plush a/c offices in Sena Bhawan

Anonymous said...

Even the "Phoren" experts seem to be conveying to the dim wit DGMF that's its better to carry on with Arjun-2 than reinvent the wheel again. In any case, CVRDE should steer clear of this project and should shut down. Too much money is being wasted on imports anywyas. Its good to be paisa-wise and dollar foolish. 14 Crores in hard cash for a 48 ton piece of pure scrap ! Wow we must be exporting oil these days to squander Forex like this !

Anonymous said...

Ajai sir, from Four Chor to Yankee Chors must have been difficult transition.

Anonymous said...

the bureaucracy in india is just so sickening. the dgmf will lead a cushy life before he is ever charged as a traitor. meanwhile our netas and babooze will enjoy the company of natashas, and their increasing bank accounts.

it won't be long before people are driven to vigilantism

thetruth said...

Nice to see the DRDO stooges so agitated. They are taking the typical resort of shouting rape secure in the knowlege that burden of proof lies on the other side. All the venom spewing shows nothing but the extreme desperation of incomptent bumbling fools. Simple points are being deliberately glossed over in all this loud rhetoric.

The GSQR was changed repeatedly because the tank took 30 years to develop. Do these apologists for mediocrity expect to field a tank with 30 year old specifications and expect our soldiers to go to war in them? Yes - you have nothing to lose. It is very difficult for you to fathom people - generals downwards - who refuse to compromise on standards, whom you can not browbeat into accepting what does not meet the mark. So you throw around wild allegations of all kinds from kickbacks to incompetence in the hope that some mud will stick. Go ahead, file a PIL - what's stopping you? Maybe the knowledge that you have nothing on ground to prove such fantasies.

You have also 'forgotten' to mention that the Army is not refusing to take over Arjuns because of any GSQR or design issues, but because the tanks have numerous DEFECTS. It is all very well to have a media jambooree where a tank or two fire perfectly, but it is another matter to have tank after tank performing consistently under the trying field conditions. That is where Arjuns have repeatedly FAILED. From the engine to the suspension system, the issues are NOT with design, but with the fact that they are not of the requisite quality.
To my mind, this should be the problem of the manufacturing agency, and so why is the design agency so agitated about it? Signs of insecurity due to incompetenece?

Comparitive trials? Why? What do you want to prove? That T 90 is equally bad? Maybe so. But that is a losers argument. That is trying to find out which is 'less bad'? T 90 was probably a hobson's choice that the army had to resort to when DRDO consistently failed to come up with a tank after 30 years of bumbling along. Buying a tank, I would suppose, is a little different from buying a mobile. You can not discard the ones you bought 8 years ago because the indigenous models are finally being fielded. So now DRDO feels it is ready, the army should given up on the T 90, and embrace the Arjun. Friend, T 90 is now fait accompli - and thanks to DRDO's delays.

You guys are really past masters at spouting mumbo jumbo hoping to sound more knowlegeable than others, and trying to browbeat them into accepting your flawed and misinformed point of view. The T 90 tank is not (yet) air conditioned, for instance - so wake up and get your facts in order. Your imported German engine fails repeatedly - and don't blame the Germans for it. It is your shoddy metallurgy which is responsible. As for guns of T 90 'blowing up', it was T 72 AJEYA, made by your equally incompetent cousin sister the Ordnance Factories, which had these accidents. And there may have been some incident when T 90s used the third rate indigenous ammunition made by the same sick sister of yours.

So you may be very impressed with yourself with plagarising left right and centre to come up with an acceptable tank design, but when it comes to translating it to actual workable machines on ground, you and your cousins are just not competent enough to do it.

Let me now tell you what is happening. The indigenous production of T 90s was deliberately delayed by your cronies at HVF to give you a window of opportunity for prostituting for more orders of Arjuns. It was a win win situation for you and them. After all, more Arjuns mean more orders for your selected vendors from whom you source your parts - whereas the T 90 contract is already signed and paid for, so no lining to your pockets. This booty can be shared by you and Ordnance, and you can carry out the easier tasks of making the shoddy Arjuns, rather than taking the difficult route of implementing the indigenisation of T 90s. So you work less, and get paid under the table to boot.
But you and your friends did not count on the army asking for more T 90 tanks to make up for the lost time. That is why you are cyring now.

Like I said earlier, why don't you let your work talk for you - remove the defects of the Arjuns and hand them over, rather than trying to force the defective trash on to the army.

You keep invoking a misplaced sense of patriotism to push your self serving agenda. Like I pointed out earlier, there is nothing patriotic about sending your soldiers to their death in sub standard equipment. So don't use it as a crutch for your incompetence. As it is, as you yourself admitted, the Arjun is hardly indigenous, except for the shell. Did you mention where the fire control systems, the ballistic computers and other parts are imported from?

You are now shitting bricks at the thought of going back to the drawing board and coming up with a decent tank for a change. That is why you are pushing for Arjun Mk II which is the easiest and cushiest way out for you - keep getting development funds alloted, keep living off them, and keep fooling the nation. Cheers.

The only option for Arjun is a DECENT BURIAL - let a few token tanks be inducted, and get back to the drawing board.

Anonymous said...

You bloody blackhole of a truth star, the T-90 , for all that you should know in your truthfullness has 75% commonality with T72 which inturn is a 35 year old design, whioch inturn means it was probably designed 50 years back.

Stop your rants about prostituting and behave yourself in a civilised manner, unless you yourself belong to the same clan.

India must develop Tank design capability. And for that very reason the MoD / GoI must pitch in, over rule the army and order for a tank force where atleast 33% are Arjuns. As happened in the great epic Mahabharata, Arjun must kill Bhishma.

Anonymous said...

"there is nothing patriotic about sending your soldiers to their death in sub standard equipment."

Exactly right, so when the shit can 90 gets hit with a tandem warhead and its ammo stored inside get blown its exactly the soldiers inside who gets incinerated. Nothing patriotic about that either.

which "defects" are we talking about here ? The past ones that were pat of the learning curve in which the army just took part as a customer rather than a stake holder or the recent ones that were engineered.

"The only option for Arjun is a DECENT BURIAL - let a few token tanks be inducted, and get back to the drawing board"

"The truth" or whatever, is spot on. Arjun project should be foreclosed right away but why get back to the drawing board sir ??

So that the tax payers money can be wasted all over again in all the ways as you have alleged.
Rather we can gift the in production Arjuns to Sri Lankan Army for live trials against a real enemy.

Or, since we are so rich to import all our frontline equipment we should dump all the Arjuns off Chennai coast and convert it into a massive artificial reef. It can be turned into a great R&R spot for the relaxing generals.
Then the CVRDE staff should be given a golden handshake and sent home, so that our tax money can be only spared only on buying tons of pure scrap from our Russian Biraadars who will keep promising the moon and the stars and charge an astronomical amount for it without any spare support and without any Star Wars technology either. Of course, we will get some rusted 1960s screwdrivers and why ? Because the tank design itself has so much legacy to it.

We will send our soldiers in those scrap cans and call ourselves patriotic saying that when the need of the hour came they did their duty for their motherland but we will not say that they died without fighting and that they never had a fighting chance. And as the thrust from the other side keeps advancing on us at that time the generals can use those glossy brochures of FMBT to clean their "you know what".

Quite a futuristic scenario isn't it, so much for the FMBT !!!

This chapter is hence forth closed.

Anonymous said...

Not to mention the fact that the "30 year old designed tank" has specs (which were changed repeatedly and dictated upon by the "customer" )comparable if not superior to the best western MBTs and yet all this talk of futuristic and crystal gazing. That's not rhetoric for you I suppose ?

Anonymous said...

Now in my rustic angrezi. All this CHOOTIYAAPAA needs to stop right now. Scrap Arjun/Akash/Nag and import whatever the fuck you need

thetruth said...

There you go again, spouting lies and halftruths and substituing insuniations and allegations for substance in the typical manner of a techno-bureaucrat. Forget about the Arjun - What's wrong with T 90? Your wishful thinking will not bring it down to the level of Arjun, which is a nightmare in action. So don't get your knickers twisted. Obviously it has commonality with T 72s - they are not imbeciles like those populating DRDO. But what you again omit to mention is that those commonalities are only to our advantage, because the rest of our fleet is also T 72. And these commonalities does NOT make it a 30 year old design. If you had a little bit of intelligence you would be able to grasp that the commonalities would be in non-critical components. Well the gun tube is the same but in addition to firing all the ammunition that a T72 fires, it can also fire a missile. The engine is not the same, the armour is definitely not the same, the electronics is not the same. You can say that approximately what is same corresponds to the indigenous component of the Arjun - is there a message here?
Your logic is quite good - army must buy Arjuns because scientists need to be trained. How will having 33% Arjuns in the army help in giving India a tank design capabilty. The way I look at it is that billions have already been wasted in providing tank design lessons to morons at DRDO. How will wasting more money in buying the trash that they have produced help in their learning experience? They won't even be called upon to repair them, though God knows there will be all the manpower required to do so with the kind of defects it would face. So, you have got your expensive education now get your act together and get down to some work.
Of course, unless army buys 33% Arjuns, you will not get your kickbacks from the vendors providing components.
Get back to the drawing board so that you don't reinforce a failure - Arjun is a failure.
The defects are well known and they are as current as ever. Once again glossing over inconvenient facts, you have failed to respond to the fact that the army is not disputing any design features but defects, which they are fully justified in doing. Who would accept defective equipment?
Your fantastic imagination connceives a widespread conspiracy where the army is sabotaging trials. Wow! Just goes to show how your dirty perverted mind works. These are the kind of tricks resorted to by your kind of people, not soldiers. Despite your numerous accusations, the generals have much more integrity than you can ever dream of having.
You keep going round and round in circles, saying nothing new. If I can sum up the gist of your arguments, it would be - we have done our bit by designing what we think is a damm good tank. The army is a bunch of corrupt ignoramous who don't know their backside from their elbow, who are unpatriotic and want to dance to the tune of the Russians for their own nefarious purposes. The Arjun is much better than the T 90, Abrahams and Leclerk put together, and the army is insisting on sabotaging the project for its own vested interests.
Wow - what an imagination. What are the facts here? The specs you talk about are mainly on paper - what use is a tank if it can not run for a few hundred km without breaking down?

Actually, a PIL into how exactly the development funds are utilized would probably be a better idea.

Anonymous said...

Even if you pay USD10 million to a jehadi hitman to take out Lt. Gen. Baradhwaj, he would refuse flatly. the Pakistanis and the Chinese would be willing to pay more to keep that traitor alive. He is doing a fantastic job shooting down the Arjun. The Pakistanis and Chinese would not dare face an Arjun. They would only be too happy to face the Russian crap of T-90. Why should the Chinese and the Pakistanis worry about the IA when it has Baradhwaj and gang to sabotage every indigenous effort. The MOD and the GOI should sack the bastard traitor with immediate effect. He is the best spy the Pakis and Chinkis have in India.

Pritam said...

"the truth"

if the T-90S so great, then why Armly simply denying comparetive trial between the two!!!


and the "30 year old designed tank" have the same design of the Leo2A4 and mush much better armour, gun, BMS, TI, BC, suspension, transmission and accuracy!!!

The parliamentary committee submitted report reveals everything.

Mihir said...

Forget about the Arjun - What's wrong with T 90?

Except for the little fact that its thermal imagers don’t work, nothing really.

Oh, and its “armour” is crap against modern ammo, as your friend Saddam found out in 1991.

Plus, there is the ammunition stored right where the crew sits, the cramped quarters, etc etc…


Obviously it has commonality with T 72s - they are not imbeciles like those populating DRDO. But what you again omit to mention is that those commonalities are only to our advantage, because the rest of our fleet is also T 72

You know, if we had brilliant fucks like you back in the 70s, we wouldn’t have bought the T-72s either. Lets stick to Centurions, T-55s, and MiG-21s onlee.

Well the gun tube is the same but in addition to firing all the ammunition that a T72 fires, it can also fire a missile.

Yeah, in theory! The tin can 90 still can’t do that :)

How will having 33% Arjuns in the army help in giving India a tank design capabilty.

Oh wow! Another I-know-it-all-coz-I-learnt-the-latest-yuppie-engineering-working-at-infy geniuses! Ever heard of incremental development. Ever heard of how the Merkava was a piece of shit that was thrust upon the Israeli Army so that engineers and scientists could get the experience?

The way I look at it is that billions have already been wasted in providing tank design lessons to morons at DRDO.

Yeah… billions wasted when you could have bought superb tank-engineering textbooks available at Appa Balwant Chowk at half the price of a McAloo Tikki.

Who would accept defective equipment?

Because DRDO cannot afford Rooshian Natashas?

These are the kind of tricks resorted to by your kind of people, not soldiers.

Would these be the same “soldiers” who screwed an upright man like General Panag? The same ones that send water instead of petrol to the grunts fighting in Siachen?

what use is a tank if it can not run for a few hundred km without breaking down?

Yeah! When already broken tanks run for hundreds of kilometers :)

Pritam said...

DRDO is a part of GoI and GoI represents Indian people, so no ruski craps please. This is how we see things. Our scientists have developed Arjun with great efforts. As on today arjun are perfectly adequate to counter paki and chinu threats. In a few years Indian engine will be developed for it. though Arjun costs more than t90, our money stays in our country.


what ever we develop that is ours and we are happy with that so no to any foreign we are well aware of t series did against western tanks in middle east!

Will the french took a M1A2 over Lec? And the American a Leo2A6 over M1A2? why??

some of the above 'Indian' people are great!!! if they are!!

Anonymous said...

The truth,
Let us play a fun game.

In your next post, can you please highlight those statements that make any sense at all. It will be easier for everyone here.

The rules are:
No highlighting statements with circular logic.
No highlighting statements which complain about unfounded allegations then promptly proceed to make some unfounded allegations.
No highlighting statements which talk about things like Indian metallurgy in imported German engines (or Indian ballistics in imported transmission, or Indian space vehicles in imported night sights).
No highlighting statements devoid of logic (T90 might be as bad as Arjun, but let us import T90s !)
No highlighting requests for non technical statements devoid of logic from others.

In case you have trouble understanding my request, let me explain what I mean:

The truth,
Do you realize that while accusing all and sundry of throwing around unfounded allegation, you proceed to throw out unfounded allegations about how DRDO sourcing components and getting kickbacks ? You allege that design has been plagiarized from western tanks, do you have proof for this ?

Your statements would have been quite funny if they werent made in the context of our national security. A bile filled bristling post does not make you any convincing or bring your points across, it makes you look like an angry hypocrite.

Lets wear some gloves and take your effluent filled post apart.

T90-T72 commonality is brilliant, Arjun-T72 lack of commonality is because DRDO is filled with imbeciles:

Did you ever visit the Arjun GSQR ? The Army wanted a 60T class tank. Do you want parts commonality with a 45T class tank ? If such a commonality is achieved, do you promise to not write ranting comments about "high percentage of imported components" ?


What T72 shares with T90 corresponds to the indegenous component of the Arjun:

Like what ? Where the ammo is stored ? The size of the tank ? the suspension ? The turret stabilization ? The autoloader ? (Arjun's ammo is stored in the turret bustle with blow off panels, T90/72 stores it in the crew compartment, Arjun has hydropneumatic suspension, T90/T72 has torsion bar, Arjun does not have an autoloader)

What you say makes no sense at all. That is a new record for hitting a new bile filled, intellectually constpiated low.

Comparitive trials? Why? What do you want to prove? That T 90 is equally bad? Maybe so. But that is a losers argument.

An equally bad imported foreign trash is better than an indegenously produced Arjun. I am having trouble understanding this, can someone help out. The logic in this statement seems to be covered by some smelly substance.

You guys are really past masters at spouting mumbo jumbo hoping to sound more knowlegeable than others, and trying to browbeat them into accepting your flawed and misinformed point of view.

Maybe we should make our points by making angry statements devoid of technical "mumbo jumbo". Like someone else here.

Your imported German engine fails repeatedly - and don't blame the Germans for it. It is your shoddy metallurgy which is responsible.

Metallurgy goes into an engine ? That too Indian metallurgy goes into an imported German engine ? Is someone here getting confused between a tank gun, a tank armor and a tank engine ?

The indigenous production of T 90s was deliberately delayed by your cronies at HVF to give you a window of opportunity for prostituting for more orders of Arjuns.

Either that or the Russians are refusing to transfer components and technologies. Let us take a wild guess. Let us revisit some current happenings first. Russians arm twisted the Indians for 1.2 Billion $ more for the Groshkov after the contract was signed. Russians suddenly wanted a 22% cost escalation for MKI after the contract was signed. Russians delayed the follow on Krivak ships because their shipyards are busy with domestic orders. Russian Klubs dont work on our Kilos. Russians refuse to induct the Brahmos.

I am sure in the T90 issue, the russians are blameless and the Indians are to blame. Afterall, you cant expect someone to be so consistently evil in so many issue. It must be the Indians this time.

Anonymous said...

Ajai-ji,
You sneaky son of a gun, I am sure you are having much fun reading the comments here after stirring up a hornet's nest :)

My questions are directly addressed at you: I presume that you are of the opinion that Arjun is a good tank. In any case, it is better than anything Pakis currently (or plan to field). Given this,

Why is there so much bad blood between the DRDO and IA ?

1. Is it because the IA got its fingers burnt repeatedly, waiting for products and discovering various defects ?

2. Is it because after drawing up a GSQR, now that the tank is ready, they realize that they dont have the logistics to support two classes of tanks. They want to gloss over this and blame DRDO instead ?

3. Is it because of the Arms import lobby ?

4. Finally, out of curiosity, how were the trials of the T90 carried out before IA decided to procure them ? Were prototypes flown over to India or was it simply that Indians believed in the brochure claims (after being satisfied with the T72) ?

I am unwilling to believe a simplistic explanation that the DGMF has been bought over with Vodka. I am also unwilling to believe that Arjun is such a trashy tank that a T90 will take it out anyday.

Surely there is more to this.

Pritam said...

^^ possible answers...

1. India developed a tnk first time with limited money and no previous tech background. But Army want a western type hi tech heavy tank!!!

2. logistics!! what were army doing for last 30 years!! why they didnt upgrade the systems as well?? No that is not the big reason but... they have already ordered so many T-90S wich is almost denied by most of the nations so default buyer is india. no other problem!!


3. russian arm delaers are most active in MoD and IA. They even killed one commodore of Indian Navy!

4. T-90S's TI, BMS and many other failed many times, above all it was too much heated in the desert of Thar.. but money talk dude...

Anonymous said...

Great read... so many different arguments. Let me add my own point or two.

1. Arjun has imported components - as long as they are superior to Russian technology, I am glad.
2. Cost is not very different - That is ok too. As someone said, it is going to stay withing the country. In case of denials from other countries, we have lesser risk than an entirely imported tank. Fewer components to re-invent
3. DRDO must get government approval for third party evaluations and certifications and start exporting the tank - As per the army, it is so bad that they wont mind us selling a few pieces to Pakistan - after all if there is a war, they will be using our inferior tanks.. while we have the superior T90s
4. Regarding stealing of technology, I have no regrets. The best rockets and missiles of US and Russia were based on WW-2 German V2/V1s. If you still feel inferior because you stealing, look at the proud Peoples Republic of China. Steal well, and you are doing a great service or your country. No morals cross national borders

What I would like to see is Mk-II, Mk-III of Arjun in less than 5 years. More computer aided designs and rapid prototype development. Next version should be so capable that it should shut every critic's mouth. Hiring some foreign consultants is not a bad idea for the initial kick-start.

not an anon said...

may be the IA thinks T90 is better than Arjun because

1. T90 has better operational range.
2. T90's 125mm gun better than Arjun's 120mm gun.
3. Availability of NBC suites for T90.
4. T90's ERA armour

What would DRDO do, if comparative trails show that T90 is better than Arjun ?? It cannot even sell it to other countries but it would be certainly helpful for DRDO to rectify Arjun.

Anonymous said...

But thats my whole point bro' .Give that I have accepted the Army's claim about Arjun's failure on all counts on its face value. My point is if we cannot do incremental, iterative development then why do R&D at all in the first place at the expense of my tax money ??
I would challenge the futuristic Army to dangle the same bait to the private sector, see how many companies would be willing to take such a 100% risk, minimalistic return deal.

Of course, the russians would lap up such an offer for a tank made with moon rock armour for it binds us to their industry in perpetuity.

My simple point is Cancel all non-strategic defence research and import, its a plain and simple solution. The day our forex runs out or our neighbour upgrades its armour we can then talk about Arjuns and Bhims and give a decent burial to Ajeya and Bhishma.

Anonymous said...

A one sided article which makes the Army look pretty bad. Did the author care to see the Army's perspective?

The Arjun is a bad tank by any standard. It does not even meet the requirements laid down 30 years ago. What justification then is there to buy this tank? Is 30 years of wasted time and effort good reason to throw away more good money.

Oh, and for those who still defend the tank as good-enough, offer it for export and see if a single one sells?

thetruth said...

Ha Ha Ha. Here we go again. Smelly stuff - you seem to be spilling it all over. Going round and round in circles? You make an olympics event
out of it. Let me ask you a few questions.

1. What are armys specific objections to the Arjun? Are you aware? Can you hazard a guess? I challenge you to give a specific answer.

2. Do you know that commonality of parts exists not only between T 90 and T 72, but also between T 90 and say - T 55, IL 76 and the AN 32? If you don't believe me, check it out. Of course your extremely limited perception or intelligence could not grasp the fact that I was not refering to commonality between T 72 and Arjuns, but the fact that you were listing commonality of facts as a disadvantage, and I pointed it out as a deliberate feature serving as an advantage. I excuse you. You are justified in muddying waters by causing confusion because actually you have nothing of substance to say.

3. Who started the game of ' accusing all and sundry of throwing around unfounded allegations' ? Who talked about our generals being on the payrolls? Why are you getting unconfortable now? Closer home to the truth now? Hooo Boy.

4. 'What T72 shares with T90 corresponds to the indegenous component of the Arjun:
Like what ? Where the ammo is stored ? The size of the tank ? the suspension ?' HELLO. Are we talking about components or design features? wake up buddy. The days of spewing veonm and mumbo jumbo are over.

5. What is the basis of your opinion that T 90 is 'imported trash'? And to my mind, imported trash worth 11 Cr is definitely better than desi trash worth 16 Cr.

6. What proof do you have, circumstantial or otherwise, or any army officer being on the parolls of the russians or anyone else? You go about naming specific generals - isn't it a fact that right from Gen BC Joshi's time, every knowlegable general has been pointing out substantial drawbacks in Arjun (except of course, a former COAS who became so due to an unfortunate twist of fate, and who probably owed greater allegiance to DRDO than to the nation). Isn't it more probable that there is something wrong with the tank, rather than that the rouskis have got every one of these on their payrolls? It is very easy to accuse anyone of being a paki or chinki spy here, but make up your mind and take a pick between a spy and a stooge. Both? wow!!!!

7. Doesn't metallurgy go into an engine? What is it made of - choclate? If you deliberately pretend to be dense then I can only shrug my shoulders. Let me try once more - read my post carefully. I said that the army does not have problems with design, but with quality control. The best engine in the world will fail if it is made of inferior metal. That is what is happening. Don't agree - your wish.

8. Oh mihir - who told you that the thermal imagers of T 90s don't work. Have you ever even seen the inside of a tank, let alone a T 90? Armchair bloody experts. Saddam had T 90s in 1991? Wow - you are really knowlegeable. Incremental development? No matter how much you increase shit, it will remain shit, only get bigger.

9. Russians are refusing to compy with the contract, or your cronies are not competent enough to ensure that? what is holding you back? Where were you when the Technology Transfer was being negotiated? Or is it that your guys are actually too dense to grasp the nuances?

10. "Regarding stealing of technology, I have no regrets. The best rockets and missiles of US and Russia were based on WW-2 German V2/V1s. If you still feel inferior because you stealing, look at the proud Peoples Republic of China. Steal well, and you are doing a great service or your country. No morals cross national borders". so you do agree to my point there. Like they say, 'Nakal ke liye bhi akal chaiye'. At least bloody learn to copy well.

As I sit typing this, the news flashing across my television is about the blasts in Ahemdabad, and that army has been called out to carry out flag marches. I think it is highly ironical, that on one hand you so and so's turn to the army at the drop of a hat or the triggering of a blast, and on the other hand you have no qualms about passing off utter trash to the same soldiers with nary a flicker of conscience, and then go on and insult them because they dare to protest.
GOD BLESS YOU.

Anonymous said...

yeah we'll offer it for export. i as an indian taxpayer am willing to offer it to pakistan and china and sri lanka..will you drdo haters in the services allow it? why should you bother? after all, we get our money back and the t-90 can rip the arjun apart, right?

lets see the fun then.

each time, the army's head in posterior generals (as compared to the guts and brawn lower ranks and even cols who did the impossible at kargil) sip their black label and make stupid comments about drdo gear...we totally agree and offer the gear for export.

dont like it? who cares. the taxpayer get their moneys worth, and after all, the black label sipping bharadwajs of the world can live with their superior t-90 and other natasha's.

simple fact is that the army has long inculcated a feeling of superiority vs the bloody civilians. and while to some degree it was acceptable, drdo has become a bakra for some of the service folks. not a single serviceman who works with drdo curses them, he understands the effort taken for r&d, but the average general/bystander has his own perverted view of the bloody inferior civilians and passes shit comments.

so yeah, lets export and see the fun.

Anonymous said...

Harry Says...

Dear Anony, are you for real? This is not about hate or feeling of superiority or Army Vs Civilians.

This is about equipping our forces with best value for money (taxpayers money) so that they can protect our borders and provide us peace and security within our borders.

Arjun is not a good enough Tank. That is all that should matter.

Anonymous said...

Ha Ha Ha. Here we go again. Smelly stuff - you seem to be spilling it all over. Going round and round in circles? You make an olympics event
out of it. Let me ask you a few questions.



Given you are full of shit, its no wonder you cant talk anything apart from shit. why use euphemisms for your nonsense?

1. What are armys specific objections to the Arjun? Are you aware? Can you hazard a guess? I challenge you to give a specific answer.

specific answer: army plumped for the t-90 thinking the arjun would flop. now it is not, so a lot of generals and brass are covering their ass by trying to cancel the arjun before cag bursts their game open. and you knowing absolutely nothing about anything are making BS up to try and divert the reality.

2. Do you know that commonality of parts exists not only between T 90 and T 72, but also between T 90 and say - T 55, IL 76 and the AN 32? If you don't believe me, check it out. Of course your extremely limited perception or intelligence could not grasp the fact that I was not refering to commonality between T 72 and Arjuns, but the fact that you were listing commonality of facts as a disadvantage, and I pointed it out as a deliberate feature serving as an advantage. I excuse you. You are justified in muddying waters by causing confusion because actually you have nothing of substance to say.

more BS from you and you want people here to take you seriously. what commonality of parts was there between the vijayanta and T-72, so why was the T-72 purchased, idiot? you obviously are making stuff up to buttres your idiotic claims up. go on, read from the BOM and tell us which parts are common to all platforms and the savings in lifecycle costs. obviously you cant. making shit up on the internet is easier.


3. Who started the game of ' accusing all and sundry of throwing around unfounded allegations' ? Who talked about our generals being on the payrolls? Why are you getting unconfortable now? Closer home to the truth now? Hooo Boy.

tehelka showed how many generals were on payrolls bacche. ketchup colonels existed in real life. show us ONE drdo officer who was indicted or found for taking money from renk or MTU. dont defend the indefensible. here itself it becomes clear you are some wannabe. in the army itself, the brass are often disparaged, especially procurement for being absolute sell outs.



4. 'What T72 shares with T90 corresponds to the indegenous component of the Arjun:
Like what ? Where the ammo is stored ? The size of the tank ? the suspension ?' HELLO. Are we talking about components or design features? wake up buddy. The days of spewing veonm and mumbo jumbo are over.


so the T-90 is inferior in most design features to the arjun, and yet you are BSing here?
the T-90 needs an AC before it can even fire at targets because its thermal doesnt work and the army accepts it. its refleks missile fails in tests, its ok. the russians dont give TOT, its ok. how much money did you sell outs make beta, and whom are you kidding with your BS?


5. What is the basis of your opinion that T 90 is 'imported trash'? And to my mind, imported trash worth 11 Cr is definitely better than desi trash worth 16 Cr.


read ajais article dumb f*ck.
the t-90 is trash.

6. What proof do you have, circumstantial or otherwise, or any army officer being on the parolls of the russians or anyone else? You go about naming specific generals - isn't it a fact that right from Gen BC Joshi's time, every knowlegable general has been pointing out substantial drawbacks in Arjun (except of course, a former COAS who became so due to an unfortunate twist of fate, and who probably owed greater allegiance to DRDO than to the nation). Isn't it more probable that there is something wrong with the tank, rather than that the rouskis have got every one of these on their payrolls? It is very easy to accuse anyone of being a paki or chinki spy here, but make up your mind and take a pick between a spy and a stooge. Both? wow!!!!

something happens to many generals, its called ego. something happens to their chamchas as well- its called lack of common sense. payroll apart, there are enough arjun supporters and they all know that telling the egotistical brass about the arjun is career suicide. so much for your shit claims about the tank being flawed.
enough evidence exists that the brass has been derelict in their duty with the arjun.


7. Doesn't metallurgy go into an engine? What is it made of - choclate? If you deliberately pretend to be dense then I can only shrug my shoulders. Let me try once more - read my post carefully. I said that the army does not have problems with design, but with quality control. The best engine in the world will fail if it is made of inferior metal. That is what is happening. Don't agree - your wish.


idiot, the engine is from germany and not even touched in india bar integration. so now the germans have inferior metallurgy, if so, why did you say "your inferior metallurgy"? what a complete fool you are making out of yourself.


8. Oh mihir - who told you that the thermal imagers of T 90s don't work. Have you ever even seen the inside of a tank, let alone a T 90? Armchair bloody experts. Saddam had T 90s in 1991? Wow - you are really knowlegeable. Incremental development? No matter how much you increase shit, it will remain shit, only get bigger.


dumb f*ck, ajai has clearly written about the t-90 thermal issue. as late as last month, a bunch of t-90s were offroad because of heat problems with fcs. if you dont even know that, you are a bloody internet warrior. go home to your daddy and ask him.

9. Russians are refusing to compy with the contract, or your cronies are not competent enough to ensure that? what is holding you back? Where were you when the Technology Transfer was being negotiated? Or is it that your guys are actually too dense to grasp the nuances?

your guys eh? are you even indian, SOB? whose national interests are you working for? if you russian turds or spanish turds cant provide what is necessary, then dont wail when india points out that you idiots lied on the contract and didnt do your job. this isnt earlier where the indian taxpayer pays you third rate beggars to subsidise your shit products.


10. "Regarding stealing of technology, I have no regrets. The best rockets and missiles of US and Russia were based on WW-2 German V2/V1s. If you still feel inferior because you stealing, look at the proud Peoples Republic of China. Steal well, and you are doing a great service or your country. No morals cross national borders". so you do agree to my point there. Like they say, 'Nakal ke liye bhi akal chaiye'. At least bloody learn to copy well.


more BS from the great BS'er. where and what did Arjun copy anything jackass? the arjun shares a common look with the LEO2 because India paid for it, with design assistance from KMW ages back, thats about it. every step of the way since then has been with the CVRDE ppl. give credit where it is due, but of course, dumb f*cks who havent done a single stint apart from their callcenter desks wouldnt know it


As I sit typing this, the news flashing across my television is about the blasts in Ahemdabad, and that army has been called out to carry out flag marches. I think it is highly ironical, that on one hand you so and so's turn to the army at the drop of a hat or the triggering of a blast, and on the other hand you have no qualms about passing off utter trash to the same soldiers with nary a flicker of conscience, and then go on and insult them because they dare to protest.
GOD BLESS YOU.


dont pretend or DARE to speak for the army, SOB.

i know enough armymen who spit at procurement officials and the imported junk they are passed off as sophisticated

ask anyone in kashmir in 1996 what happened to the marconi Elint gear which bastards like you fobbed off on the army after scuttling two local programs to get the same

enough people have died paying foreign bank accounts so that scum like you and yours could pad their retirement accounts while their peers suffer for want of spares and you preach morality to us.

you sir, as somebody said - can go rot.

cheers.

Anonymous said...

Harry Says...

Dear Anony, are you for real? This is not about hate or feeling of superiority or Army Vs Civilians.


yeah sure. army procurement is doodh ka dhoola.

This is about equipping our forces with best value for money (taxpayers money) so that they can protect our borders and provide us peace and security within our borders.

yes, best value for money using my hard earned tax money with tanks whose barrels explode, whose night vision doesnt work, whose missiles dont hit, whose engines seize up..nice nice..

Arjun is not a good enough Tank. That is all that should matter.

compared to the t-90, the arjun is far better...in fact the more you army dalaals protest, the more it is clear that chor ke daadi main tinka..

somebody should file a PIL and expose you scum for what you are.

hiding behind actual soldiers to push junk down your peers throats so you can enjoy your whisky in peace and they can rest in pieces.

scum.

Anonymous said...

ketchup war experts and booze brigadiers..this is your chance. please all talk about how bad and evil DRDO is, how nasty they are, and how you patriots absolutely love the t-90. never mind the poor sowar who rides that piece of shit into battle will fail due to heat exhaustion and the fancy french thermal imager wont work either. good job, more ketchup with your black label sires?

Anonymous said...

one of the biggest drdo/dpsu baiters in the navy was actually a gentleman who was both a war hero and whose son set up the famous crown corporation. guess who?
another great drdo/dpsu baiter, from the navy- never missed a chance to run the org down..son in law from pakistan, is a huge presence on the IndoPak peace circuit
These are navy guys, dig a bit and you will find dime a dozen drdo/psu baiter ex army types in delhi and elsewhere. all peddling overpriced gear and spares from russia and west to services, they spare no chance in running drdo and local items down. its amazing to watch how the govt of india has let these fellows enjoy themselves. plus farmhouses and huge shindigs. nice life in arms dealing. only if you dont run over sleeping hawkers on the footpath in your metallurgically excellent bmw, lol

Anonymous said...

An Open letter to DGMF Lt. Gen. Dalip Bharadwaj:

Sir,
Since you have already made up your mind about the Arjun may I just ask for a one last favour.

Since T-90S is the chosen one for the Indian Army and since T90S is now being "Indianised" using my tax money may I ask you the following (you are of course free to refuse citing Official Secrets Act):

Nag final development and user trials are coming up. May I ask if you can spare one of your best T90s as a target tank and even better if you drive at the max range of Nag missile and let the NAMICA take a shot on your tank.
If Nag misses and you with your tank survives, SCRAP both ARJUN and NAG. I will most humbly accept both as Failures then. As a bonus you can also SCRAP AKASH.

If you don't survive I'll write a eulogy in your memory as a Gen. who led his tank crew from the front and one who lived and died for his beliefs.

DO YOU HAVE IT (the balls that is) IN YOU ?

Most Respectfully,
An Anonymous Indian Tax Payer and no I don't work for the DRDO or any of its associate labs

Anonymous said...

Harry Says...

Dear anonyomous, you are angry, bitter and beyond reason.

As far as facts go, except for the suspension, Arjun is inferior to the T-90 in every way (weight/ maneuverability/ fire power/ maintainability / survivability and so on).

If you support the Arjun, tell us how it is better (facts pls, not angry rantings)?

Mihir said...

oesn't metallurgy go into an engine? What is it made of - choclate?

This one sure does take the cake. Does Indian metallurgy go into a German engine? :o

If this is so, we are pretty much at the edge of materials tech, and we don't need German help in designing an engine anyway. If I'm an armchair expert, you ain't even that. Just a rabid dog that keeps barking at those who actually walk the talk. Which liberal arts school did you study engineering in?

every knowlegable general has been pointing out substantial drawbacks in Arjun (except of course, a former COAS who became so due to an unfortunate twist of fate, and who probably owed greater allegiance to DRDO than to the nation)

Oh wow! This is logic I cannot beat! My allegations are true while your aren't. Nice!

Saddam had T 90s in 1991? Wow - you are really knowlegeable.

Oh bhai... pleej to be reading my posts! Saddam's T-72s got slaughtered because their armour was inadequate, their guns were outranged by the Yamrikans, and the tank exploded like a pyrotechnic display even after a small hit simply because it didn't have compartmented ammo starage. Which of these things have been rectified by the T-90? Sitting at your chair and yapping all day ain't gonna make your bullshit believable.

No matter how much you increase shit, it will remain shit, only get bigger.

I can see that you have been well-fed :D

Anonymous said...

No I'm just saying scrap all non strategic R&D and Import thats what I'm saying. Things have gone beyond anger now. Now its only despair that my Jawans will get tandoored. Anyways, enough of my RANTS...

Anonymous said...

Harry Says...

Ajai is trying to hint at corruption as a possible reason for Arjun being rejected by the Army.

However, the Army's assertion that the tank is not good enough, is more believable, given DRDO's well known track record of miserable failures.

Please note that there are strong lobby's with vested interests in selling Arjun to th Army (the German's for instance). There is no reason to believe that DRDO or for that matter Ajai, is not influenced by them.

Anonymous said...

As far as facts go, except for the suspension, Arjun is inferior to the T-90 in every way (weight/ maneuverability/ fire power/ maintainability / survivability and so on).

If you support the Arjun, tell us how it is better (facts pls, not angry rantings)?


Arjun may have higher weight, but the ground pressure is lower. No sinking in the sand, or the mud at the bottom of a canal for example.

Arjun has a higher power to weight ratio, better acceleration, higher top speed, higher cross country speed. A better suspension also helps here.

Arjun can handle steeper gradients and ford to greater depths.

Who told you Arjun has inferior maneuverability ?

Arjun has a better FCS. There has been no complaints about the FCS in the latest trials. T90's FCS has failed repeatedly and RFPs are out for fitting an AC in T90.

Arjun has a higher first hit probability at a greater range on a smaller target than the T90.

The gun elevation and depression is greater than the T90.

Arjun can destroy all NATO targets at maximum range. The Army never complained about Arjun's firepower.

LAHAT has been demonstrated on the Arjun, Refleks has not been demonstrated on the T90.

Whoever gave you the idea that T90 has better firepower ?

Arjun has ammo separated from the crew, so they have better survivability if the hull is penetrated.

Arjun armor has defeated all T72 rounds.

Arjun is designed for Indian soldiers (Russians limit their tank crews to 5'7")

Whoever gave an idea about T90 having better survivability ?

So in short, Arjun is faster, has lower pressure on the ground, higher ground clearance, can handle steeper gradients, can fire better, has better crew comfort and protects the crew better.

I wonder what else a tank should be better in ?

Anonymous said...

Harry says....

I don't know where your information comes from, but it directly contradicts what I know. So, let me base my assertions on things we agree on.

- We know that Arjun's weight is one of the highest in the world and the same is true for the size. This weight and size makes it unsuitable for most current tank transporters and even for rail transport. What good is a tank which is not transportable and think how much more we would need to spend on just these support vehicles.

- A large number of vital components are imported (including the engine). This makes it susceptible to foreign embargo's, something Russia is relatively insulated from.

- This last one is a killer. Please place pics of M1A1, T-90 and Arjun side by side. One look, and you would know how dated the design of the Arjun is. No modern tank has a flat wall. Slanting or curved walls deflect the force of the projectile, providing the first line of defense. Arjun, misses out on this most basic of principles.

If the Army is to be believed (which I do) Arjun gets worse the deeper we look. Amongst other things, The FCS is one of the primary areas of concerns.

As I said before, DRDO has a well known track record of miserable failures. There are strong lobby's with vested interests in selling Arjun to the Army (the German's for instance). I think these lobby's are trying to tarnish the Army and push through an unworthy tank.

Anonymous said...

Harry you are mistaken on all counts.
We know that Arjun's weight is one of the highest in the world

Arjun is 58.5 tonnes

Abrams is 61.5 tonnes, Challenger is 62.5 tonnes, Merkava is 65 tonnes, Leopard 2 is 62.3 tonnes.

Heaviest in the world when compared to which tank ? T72 which has poor crew protection and armor ?

This weight and size makes it unsuitable for most current tank transporters and even for rail transport

Where did you source the information that it is unsuitable for rail transport ? Have you heard of BFAT ? 178 of them have been ordered, 30 of them already delivered as of 2006. What makes you say that it is unsuitable for rail transport ?

A large number of vital components are imported (including the engine)
The powerpack is imported. The FCS has been indigenized. All of T90 is imported. Russians are unwilling to work with us to indigenize the ammo, RFP has been sent out to reverse engineer the FCS so we can make domestic ammo. Which tank do you think is susceptible to sanctions ? The tank with imported engine which we can stockpile or the tank with the imported ammo ?

something Russia is relatively insulated from.
Do you know about the Krasnapol incident during Kargil ? The brake chute incident ? During peacetime the Groshkov incident ? The MKI 22% escalation incident ? The Krivak incident ? The Klub on Kilo incident ? Dont go by the old soviet stories, Russia is every bit commercial as they come.

One look, and you would know how dated the design of the Arjun is. No modern tank has a flat wall. Slanting or curved walls deflect the force of the projectile.

A "flat wall" ? Wow ! Do you think LeClerc and Leopard 2A5 designers are idiots too ? Have you heard of composite armors ? Did you stop to wonder why most tanks with composite armors have a "flat wall" ? Let me give you a hint, the armor on the inside does not look like how it looks on the outside.

By the way, T90 has a "flat wall" too. The "slanted wall" appearance is because of the ERA bricks.

"Flat wall", my god ! You didnt honestly believe that people in DRDO were so bad that they didnt tilt the "wall".

Anonymous said...

I cant get over the "flat wall" comment.

Slanting or curved walls deflect the force of the projectile, providing the first line of defense.

Slanting or curved walls deflect tennis balls well. I am not so sure about AP or HEAT rounds. AP and HEAT rounds are not defeated by bouncing them off the armor, they are defeated by absorbing their energy. Composite/ER armors do exactly that. Composite armors are designed to be penetrated to a few layes, to absorb and dissipate the energy of AP and HEAT rounds.

Anonymous said...

Harry says....

I don't know where your information comes from, but it directly contradicts what I know. So, let me base my assertions on things we agree on.


Harry,
Dont go by the size and weight claims. They are layman rubbish and dont apply to tank warfare.

Arjun might be heavier, that is primarily because of more and better armor. The power of the engine more than makes up for it. It is like claiming that a TVS 50 is lighter than a BMW so a TVS 50 has better top speed, acceleration and handling characteristics.

Same applies for ground pressure. The width and length of the tracks matter. Not just the weight of the tank. Arjun as a lower ground pressure.

By the way, all the stats above are sourced from the MOD report, various DRDO reports and the DRDO website.

Again, Arjun is 58.5 tonnes because the army wanted a 58.5 tonne tank. They thought pakis were buying the Abrams (60 tonnes) and wanted our tank to counter the Abrams. The weight issue was played up by media ignoramuses (who claimed the torsion bar in Arjun failed without realizing that there is no torsion bar in the Arjun. Arjun has a hydropneumatic suspension). Ultimately, Pakis went with tin can Al-Khalid instead, which is about the same class as combat improved Ajeya.

Also dont go by the "smaller size/silhouette" bandied about in the media. Tank battles are fought from hull down position. Arjun has better gun depression and can find better hull down positions. Also lower silhouette is not as important as engagement ranges. Arjun has a higher engagement range with its main gun and FCS and a better first hit rate. Arjun's reach is extended by the LAHAT to almost 8km.


The numbers for the speed, acceleration, cross country speed, first hit probability, gun depression can all be easily found. Dont get fooled by the weight/size issue which is a non issue.

Dont think that the Russians are knights in shining armor. They agreed to transfer RD-93 to china which powers Paki's JF-17. They are refusing for TOT of T90 armor, so any hit/disabled tank should be flown to Russia for repairs as of now ! Same issue with the Ammo. They refuse to divulge FCS info so we can adapt the FCS to locally produced ammo. Guess who is going to have huge markups for Armor and Ammo if war breaks out ?

The Russians of today are not Soviets of old.

Anonymous said...

Harry Says....

1) Basic principal... by slanting the wall, the effective thickness presented to an incoming projectile increases, thus affording better protection. Also, not every incoming projectile is HE. The reactive armour and it's working are a separate point. Yes, DRDO did miss this most basic of points or maybe the design is really old?

2) What weight are you comparing? With add-on armour etc? Also, compare it to tanks currently in our inventory. It is the heaviest, and totally unsuitable for our infrastructure.

3) So, you do concede that new arrangements need to be made for transportation? Are we building an army to support the tank?

4) One odd incident does not change the fact that Russia is much more resilient to foreign pressure and much more likely to stand with us in the face of any embargo against us.

5) As a matter of fact, T-90 does have curved walls, a shape also referred to as "bubble-like". No modern design has flat walls.

I HAVE HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF HAVING WORKED WITH A LEADING DRDO LAB AS A TRAINEE ENGINEER AND AM WELL VERSED WITH THEIR ABILITIES AND MOTIVATION.

POINTLESS ARGUING ASIDE, IF IT WERE LEFT TO ME, I WOULD RATHER GO TO WAR IN A T-90 THAN THE ARJUN. THE ARJUN DOES NOT INSPIRE ANY CONFIDENCE IN THE MEN WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO TAKE IT TO WAR.

Anonymous said...

Harry Says...

The T-90 is a product of 50 years of RnD and tank technology know-how. It comes from a lineage of successful and proven tanks. The producers of T-90 are well placed to fix problems and upgrade performance, quickly and efficiently. Commercial problems aside, the T-90 is unmatched.

I would hasten to add that I am not a Russian fan. I would be happier if India bought the American M1A1 or the German Leopard. However, the Arjun, strictly because of it's capability (or rather the lack of it), is a strict no-no.

Anonymous said...

1) Basic principal... by slanting the wall, the effective thickness presented to an incoming projectile increases, thus affording better protection. Also, not every incoming projectile is HE. The reactive armour and it's working are a separate point. Yes, DRDO did miss this most basic of points or maybe the design is really old?

Are you assuming that tank shells travel in a straight line and hit "flat walls" in a perpendicular fashion ? Tank shells follow a ballistic trajectory and hit the armor at an angle. So going by your argument, an angled wall will present a perpendicular face to an incoming projectile. What do you say now ?


2) What weight are you comparing? With add-on armour etc?

No. To the basic tanks. M1A1-SEP and M1A1 with TUSK are heavier still.

Also, compare it to tanks currently in our inventory

T72 has been shown to be totally insufficient in terms of protection and armor. What do we do now ? Go with a light tin can ? T90 is heavier than the Vijayanta. Why did we upgrade then ? Why are all western tanks in the 55T range ?

One odd incident does not change the fact that Russia is much more resilient to foreign pressure and much more likely to stand with us in the face of any embargo against us.

Let me count 1. Groshkov, 2. MKI, 3. Klub, 4. Krivak, 5. T90 armor, 6. T90 ammo, 7. Brahmos

Arjun is inherently less vulnerable to sanctions ! We have imported only the powerpack and FCS !

I HAVE HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF HAVING WORKED WITH A LEADING DRDO LAB AS A TRAINEE ENGINEER AND AM WELL VERSED WITH THEIR ABILITIES AND MOTIVATION.

POINTLESS ARGUING ASIDE, IF IT WERE LEFT TO ME, I WOULD RATHER GO TO WAR IN A T-90 THAN THE ARJUN.


and I have worn black (I doubt you even understand what that means).

Manu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mihir said...

No modern tank has a flat wall. Slanting or curved walls deflect the force of the projectile.

Harry, for the sake of your safety and mine, I sincerely wish you have nothing to do with the armed forces of India.

How flimsy can an excuse be? It doesn't have a flat wall! Dear God! Do you think a shell travels parallel to the ground and hits the turret perpendicular to its surface? And even if it does, do you really think a tilted wall will work as a reasonable defence with the kind of momentum we are speaking about?

by slanting the wall, the effective thickness presented to an incoming projectile increases, thus affording better protection

This decreases the size of the turret, and therefore, the space available inside! Its high school geometry, really. And if you go for a bigger turret, why not a bigger turret with a thicker wall? Oh wait! That will increase the weight. So what do we do? DRDO is incompetent onlee :(

What weight are you comparing? With add-on armour etc? Also, compare it to tanks currently in our inventory. It is the heaviest, and totally unsuitable for our infrastructure.

So buy Maruti 800s. They are cheap, mobile, light, air-conditioned, and nimbler than the vaunted T-90. Plus, with our present railway infrastructure we can easily carry them to border areas. Sure, the Arjun trounces the Maruti-800 (and the T-90) when it comes to sheer firepower, armour, crew protection, crew comfort, and electronics. But since when have these things been important?

So, you do concede that new arrangements need to be made for transportation? Are we building an army to support the tank?

Of course they do! New arrangements have to be made for evey new weapon purchased. You think the Su-30 uses MiG-21 spares?

One odd incident does not change the fact that Russia is much more resilient to foreign pressure and much more likely to stand with us in the face of any embargo against us.

One odd incident, or a spate of incidents sir? And when was the last time India imposed sanctions on India?

As a matter of fact, T-90 does have curved walls, a shape also referred to as "bubble-like". No modern design has flat walls

Leclerc, Black panther, Leo-2A5 are all modern tanks

I WOULD RATHER GO TO WAR IN A T-90 THAN THE ARJUN.

Perhaps you should. We would then be spared your rants.

Manu said...

What matters most is not whether Arjun is better than T90, but that Arjun is the ONLY indigenous tank that India has. Nobody will consider India a serious superpower unless it has war-worthy indigenous strategic military systems like tanks, planes, ships, engines, missiles. Hence Arjun, LCA, Kaveri, Agni, etc. The defense planners did not randomly pick systems to develop indigenously, there was and is a very deliberate plan that leads to India being a superpower.

So the only, single, undisputed option that India has is to accept and field Arjun, and then improve upon it. No country has or can develop a perfect system in the first iteration. Importing T90, even if it is the best tank in the world, is self-defeating.

Anonymous said...

Harry Says...

1) Lets not get drawn into a discourse on tank technology. However, just to clarify, "Tank shells (NOW) follow a ballistic trajectory" where they do not need to even touch the tank. These smart anti-tank "top attack" weapons evolved because of advances such as angled-walls and add-on armour. However, even today, they constitute a percentage of anti-tank weapons with older, dumb, direct attack weapons still in use.

2) I am not pro-Russian, especially since they started selling to China/Pakistan. I am anti-Arjun since I think it's no-good.

3)You are right about the weight. Perhaps I missed this in my haste. However, the important point still remains that we are not equipped to handle the Arjun's weight. As pointed out (by you?) we had to buy the BFAT just to transport the Arjun by rail? An undesired logistical tail! Also, now it becomes easier for the enemy to figure out the deployment pattern via satellite. Just track the BFAT wagons.

Anonymous said...

Mihir,

Your commens don't warrent a response. You are missing the basics. Take a slab of metal and check this by yourself. Also, its one of three basic points I was making. The actual problems/shortcomings go much deeper.

Manu,

I see the point you are trying to drive at. However, do you realize we are gambling with lives here. The Arjun is too little, too late. I totally agree with you if your proposal is to take the lessons learnt from Arjun and build a new tank from scratch. If the DRDO builds Arjun-2 to spec, in the agreed timeframe, nothing could be better.

Anonymous said...

Dear god please have mercy on my soul !

However, just to clarify, "Tank shells (NOW) follow a ballistic trajectory"

Tank shells followed a ballistic trajectory since gravity came into existence. I am going to hazard a guess that gravity existed before tanks were made.

where they do not need to even touch the tank.

Wow.

These smart anti-tank "top attack" weapons evolved because of advances such as angled-walls and add-on armour.

Repeat after me. There are no top attack shells. There are only top attack missiles. Everything projectile follows a ballistic path. Including bullets from a gun.

Also, now it becomes easier for the enemy to figure out the deployment pattern via satellite.

And T90 deployment wont be spotted because they are transported in the squat toilet of the second class compartment of Rajdhani ?

Anonymous said...

where they do not need to even touch the tank.

Wow.


Hey ! he is right. There are special shells called ANPTSS
(armor non piercing, totally scary shells).

These dont touch the armor, but dance around the gunner's sight while playing a scary movie, thereby totally scaring the daylights out of the tank crew.

sniperz11 said...

Harry Says...

1) Lets not get drawn into a discourse on tank technology. However, just to clarify, "Tank shells (NOW) follow a ballistic trajectory" where they do not need to even touch the tank. These smart anti-tank "top attack" weapons evolved because of advances such as angled-walls and add-on armour. However, even today, they constitute a percentage of anti-tank weapons with older, dumb, direct attack weapons still in use.


Harry, are you sure that you were even a trainee engineer??

So you're saying that till now, shells went in a completely straight line, unaffected by gravity. And suddenly, recently, they decided to be affected by Newton's discovery and started taking the parabolic trajectory...

Perhaps you might want to recap on some old concepts - Projectile motion for one, gravity being another.

Anonymous said...

Please don't argue for it's sake. Ask yourself, what makes a tank different from a Howitzer? Some are more ballastic than others :)

I am glad you understood that I was referring to missiles. This is not an English lesson, so lets not play with words and concentrate on the message. The message is "Arjun Tank is crap".

The T-90 gets transported on the same wagon that transports the T-72, which is the same that transports the T55. However, if the BFAT is parked in Ahmednagar, the enemy would know where Arjun is long before spotting the tank itself. Got it? Duh!

Anonymous said...

Harry says...

For the smart-ass who posted the message on ANPTSS, please see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKqRsgm4CQc

As you might notice, the missile never hit the tank.

Anonymous said...

Please don't argue for it's sake. Ask yourself, what makes a tank different from a Howitzer? Some are more ballastic than others
I assume you are not talking about the ballast carried in ships by the IN.

Wow. More ballistic ? Do you know the difference between direct fire and indirect fire ? Dimwit, do you mean howitzers are used as indirect fire weapons ? Do you know that Bofors were used as direct fire weapons in Kargil ? Let me put it in a way you understand, we reduced the percentage ballisticity of Bofors gun in Kargil, because we felt that the Pakis in the mountains did not deserve all of our ballisticity.

so lets not play with words and concentrate on the message. The message is "Arjun Tank is crap".

Why ? Because some idiot on the interwebs who claims to be a trainee engineer and rants about more ballistic vs less ballistic told me so ? The same dimwit who confuses between shells and missiles ? The same moron, does not know the stats about the weights of contemporary western tanks ? The same pinhead who did not check the power to weight ratio, top speed or ground pressure of the tank he was berating ?

I believe everything you say.

Anonymous said...

Harry Says...

Anger and bitterness!!! Are you pushing a personal agenda? Who's payrolls are you on? Or are you one of those "Pro-India" people who would give anything to go abroad? An armchair patriot perhaps?

Oh! The three basic points I made are sufficient to prove that Arjun tank is crap. I don't see you contending those. Have you realized you loose and are now down to squabbling?

Anonymous said...

I don't get it about the 3 basic points wrt the Arjun. If the Arjun was that bad why even attempt to produce the initial batch of 124 tanks? Why wasn't the project shut down in the 1990's without an attempt to build a production line?

Anonymous said...

Anger and bitterness!!! Are you pushing a personal agenda? Who's payrolls are you on? Or are you one of those "Pro-India" people who would give anything to go abroad? An armchair patriot perhaps?

I served in the Navy short service commission, opted out and was based in INS Rajali. Last I checked, you claimed to be a trainee engineer and going by your posts, not a very good one at that.

The three basic points I made are sufficient to prove that Arjun tank is crap.

1. Weight, Mobility, Protection.

Posters here have debunked the myth. Arjun has better mobility and firepower than T90. Show me one mobility parameter in which Arjun is outclassed. Power to weight ratio ? Ground speed ? Gradient ? Acceleration ? Fording ? Trench crossing ? Obstacle clearance ? Top speed ?

Show me one design feature which has compromised on crew survivability ? T90 does not separate ammo from the crew.

2. "Flat Wall", Rail transportation.
I am not even going to grace "flat wall" with an answer. Flat wall complaint coming from someone who says "more ballistic".

Stop with that BFAT parked in Ahmednagar already ! That reason sounds crazy. It really does.

3. Import sanctions.

Posters here have pointed out that 3 (exactly 3) subsystems are imported. They have also pointed out how Russians are shafting us.

Why hark back to your 3 points ? Dont go ballistic. If you do, go "less" ballistic and hit your head against a flat wall :P

Anonymous said...

Harry Says...

The Arjun is not all bad. A lot of good has come out of the programme in terms of kick starting a domestic tank knowhow. However, Arjun does not meet the requirements of a modern MBT. We can get a much better products at comparable prices. We should take the lessons learnt from Arjun and build a new tank from scratch

As far as why 124? well, I think it's about face saving and politics. One cannot produce nothing after spending millions.

Anonymous said...

Harru Says...

Sincere apologies, but I was trying to be as non-technical as possible for the benefit of simpletons like you.

Not to get personal (but since you already have), did your head soak a lot of water while serving in INS Rajali?

Also, what is a Navy Man doing commenting on Tanks? Aren't you a bit off your turt?

Lastly, I was a trainee 8 years ago. Today, I work on cutting edge technology, doing stuff you probably dream of.

Anger and bitterness! Only, Anger and bitterness! Please do us all a favor and go sleep!

Anonymous said...

As far as why 124? well, I think it's about face saving and politics. One cannot produce nothing after spending millions.

If the tank is bad then the 124 tank crews operating it are being condemned before the battle is fought. Surely face saving and politics aren't worth the lives of 124 tank crews. It is hard to believe that an Army that cares for its people would be party to such a decision.

A large part of the disconnect here stems from the fact that the 124 tank order was seen to be the precursor to a larger order for full-fleet replacement of the T-series with the Arjun. It is possible that the Army has honestly changed its mind wrt issuing a larger order for the Arjun, but then the choice of a different tank has to be justified over again because the Army was ok with issuing the original order for the 124 tanks.

Anonymous said...

Hey Man Harry,

IA does not fight tank battles like you think they do. Armored regiments (which used to be attached to strike corps, now IA has a cold start doctrine, they are trying to attach them to integrated battle groups) have bases. From bases, they move to staging areas. The staging areas stay the same and everything about the movement is planned and rehearsed. Including to the last detail like how many screwdrivers to take and who will be supplying them and who will be carrying them.

Once they are in the staging area, battle plans are drawn up, depending on objectives, the plans already rehearsed and discussed and the status of various forces (have any been defeated, have any been captured). And then the armored corps, artillery, infantry and aviation move for armored thrusts.

Based on our rail transport plans, the enemy cannot gauge our final attack plans. Intelligence like human intelligence (spies), signal intercepts (eavesdropping), scouting (some special force elements dropped in forward areas) and aerial surveillance are used to locate armored thrusts and intensity. Even then, they are much debated to make sure that they are not diversion attacks.

Spotting rail bogies are really a last concern. In any case, movement during night, camo, diversion, dummies, infantry protection in rearward areas and air defense in forward areas are all used in a real war.

Anonymous said...

Harry Says...

My understanding is that the Army has found the tank to be way short of expectations from day 1. The only compromise was that the tanks would be procured now but upgraded later. This is the same logic on which LCA has gone under limited production with the less-powerful engine. The "expectation" is that the shortcoming will be addressed with the more powerful engines being evaluated.

The Army does not have the power to buy. It evaluates and recommends. The purchase is finalized by politicians and bureaucrats.

Anonymous said...

WHY ARJUN IS A DUD… the three basic points:
(These don’t even go into the numerous technical shortcomings and builds only on the basic well-known facts)

- Arjun's weight is higher that anything we currently have in our inventory. This weight and size makes it unsuitable for most current tank transporters we have and even for rail transport. In fact, India had to invest into special wagons called BFAT to make Arjun rail transportable. This adds a new logistical tail in addition to making the tanks more easily traceable from satellite since now we could track the bigger BFATs as well. What good is a tank which is not transportable and think, how much more we would need to spend on just these support vehicles.

- It is not an indigenous tank. The three most important components, the Fire Control System, the Engine and Transmission are imported. (We have welded it together though). This also makes it highly susceptible to foreign embargos. For example, if we were to test a Nuclear Weapon tomorrow (remote but plausible), there would be no more Arjun’s.

- The design of the Arjun is dated and draws on old technology. It still does not perform to expectation and breaks down frequently, as seen in the recent Winter trials. Please see report to Parliament’s Standing Committee on Defence at the URL below. Please concentrate on the actual failures seen, not why they happened or the spin on how soon they will be fixed: http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/04/only-for-hardcore-tank-buffs-arjun.html

The Arjun is too little, too late. Should we risk the lives of our servicemen by putting them in inferior tanks, when we can get much better tanks at comparable prices? The only thing that can come out of Arjun is Arjun-2. We should take the lessons learnt from Arjun and build a new tank from scratch. If the DRDO builds Arjun-2 to agreed specifications and in the agreed timeframe, nothing could be better. Forcing the Arjun, in it’s current form, on the Army would be a case of sinking more good money and putting the lives of our servicemen in danger.

Anonymous said...

My understanding is that the Army has found the tank to be way short of expectations from day 1. The only compromise was that the tanks would be procured now but upgraded later.

This does not gel because the Army is not asking for an upgraded Arjun, rather an entirely different tank is desired.

As you stated a few comments above in your opinion the recommended course of action is to design a new tank from scratch. Now if this is the case and an upgraded Arjun would not do, then a lot of time and effort would have been better utilized in working on a new tank over the last 8 years or so.

So that is why it looks like something has changed in the years since the order for the 124 tanks was placed.

Anonymous said...

Sally says....

The Army was never interested in a local tank from day 1.
All the changes in GSQRs that one talks of were just a ploy to keep the R&D team to keep going in circles.

Now that the DRDO has a ready product they are shitting in their pants and talking of CRYSTAL GAZING into the future.

Anonymous said...

"Arjun's weight is higher that anything we currently have in our inventory. "

Who asked for a 58.5 ton tank ? the Army

"It is not an indigenous tank. The three most important components, the Fire Control System, the Engine and Transmission are imported."

That's how to learn to first stand up, walk and then sprint. The road map is already laid out if you care. the FCS has been indigenised by BEL, a 1500 hp engine is to worked upon same with the transmission. Thats why the talk of Mark-2. Heck, even Indica and Nano had design inputs from Europe.

"The design of the Arjun is dated and draws on old technology. It still does not perform to expectation and breaks down frequently, as seen in the recent Winter trials."

The dated design compares well with any modern western MBT and the T90 has no legacy to it ? T72- 55 etc
As for the trials how come no one talks of the summer trials ? They must have been even tougher conditions given the temperatures in Pokharan ?

"The Arjun is too little, too late. Should we risk the lives of our servicemen by putting them in inferior tanks, when we can get much better tanks at comparable prices?"

Too little, did you say and what is T90 our frontline MBT too much. We should definitely not risk the lives of our jawans, thats exactly my point, the Tin -90 Scrap's (T-90S) reputation in that regard is well known, again legacy design.

Comparable prices did you say 14 crore in hard cash 100% goes out of the country versus 18 crores whose 40% even as of today remains in the country to back the SMEs and other ancillary industries.

We are really living in Wonderland.

Anonymous said...

The army has always wanted a tank that performs to expectation. Conceded that the expectations have gone up with time, but that is what would be expected over a time frame of 30 years. Also, would you blame the Army for giving up on the Arjun after 30 year of not getting the desired results. The latest (failed) winter trials seems to have been the final nail.

Everyone loves a good deal. The Army is no exception. Give it a good tank at the right price, it should be happy.

End of the day, it's your (the nations) money and we must buy the best we can from that money, not order more Arjun's just because it is locally 'assembled'.

Anonymous said...

Ah upstairs neighbor (the one above the one above),
Please give up. You are playing a cat and mouse game.

"Arjun is one of the heaviest tank in the world"
Has been modified to "Arjun is heavier than anything in our inventory" when pointed out that Abrams, Chally, Leclerc, Merkava are equal if not heavier weight.

"Arjun cannot be transported by rail"
Has been modified to "did you know that we need new bogies for transporting Arjun by rail ?"

"Arjun is not indigenous"
Has not been modified, even after someone pointed out that the transmission, engine and gun for Abrams, LeClerc, Chally are all imported.

There is some mumbo jumbo about satellite tracking. Even though some poor soul took time to go into detail like staging areas.

IA's own report reads "The accuracy and consistency of Arjun has been proved beyond doubt". After reading that we have
"Arjun has deficient firepower"

"Arjun breaks down"
That statement after a bulk of Ajai's article is about the T90's woes and AC issue.

And then we have some entertaining posts about flat walls and tank shells wanting to become ballistic suddenly.

Upstairs neighbor (the one above the one above), What are you trying to accomplish at all ? Shouldnt you just give up ? You are talking to a flat wall.

Anonymous said...

Harry Says....

Who asked for a 58.5 ton tank ? the Army
Harry> Sorry, that is incorrect. The tank did come out way over weight.

(T-90's) 14 crore in hard cash 100% goes out of the country versus (Arjun's) 18 crores whose 40% 14 Co10 Corores f
Harry> This is not a fair consideration. You are talikng about winning war. To win, you do not opt for sub-standard equipment to save Forex.

the Tin -90 Scrap's (T-90S) reputation in that regard is well known, again legacy design.
Harry> The T-90 is an excellent tank. Allegedly, it might have developed some problems. However, Russia has the knowhow and expertise to fix it quickly. Compare this to DRDO's ability to fix Arjun's shortcomings.

Anonymous said...

Oh, so our Harry the disgruntled technical trainee who left a DRDO lab (most likely for greenbacks) works on cutting edge technologies like extracting Helium-3 out of moon rocks whereas I'm just a farmboy doing desi jugaars converting my old irrigation pump sets into Marutas to carry fodder for my buffaloes who are more intelligent than the Futuristic dim wits of the Army. My buffalo surely has it I'm not so sure the Army has in it when it asks do you have it in you !

Anonymous said...

Harry Says...

Ah! the statements, after modification, are more accurate and ever more reason to ditch the Arjun!

Anonymous said...

Ah! the statements, after modification, are more accurate and ever more reason to ditch the Arjun!

Ah, so you have modified your statements, but not your opinion which were based on incorrect, misinformed and uninformed facts ?

Sorry, that is incorrect. The tank did come out way over weight.

Do you know what a GSQR is ?

Anonymous said...

Sally says....
The moment you try to reason with cold economic facts to counter economy and comparable prices argument you go into winning the war mode.
Btw, hasn't the CVRDE fixed the problems the army referred to. I still say test the Nag against a full ERA protected T-90 and see for yourself the result of the tandem warhead. The army top brass is too weak to accept that open challenge. It will chicken out for sure. And mind, I did not say the jawans. They are the ones doing the Janitor's job

Anonymous said...

Harry Says...

Ah! the statements, after modification, are more accurate and ever more reason to ditch the Arjun!


Ditch the Arjun ! It has a Flat wall !

I call upon all IA lovers/DRDO haters to unite below that slogan.

Harry, you are an inspiring visionary genius ! (who also doubles as a trainee engineer by day)

Mihir said...

Your commens don't warrent a response. You are missing the basics.

If you act as if the laws of gravity don't exist, you are better off not responding to me.

However, do you realize we are gambling with lives here.

Typical cry-baby attitude. We are gambling with lives only when we use DRDO maal. We aren't when we buy crappy Russian tin cans.

Come to think of it, you are right! With the tin-can-90, those poor grunts are sure shot goners :(

The three basic points I made are sufficient to prove that Arjun tank is crap

Boss, the zillion points people have made here have shown that the tin-can-90 is far worse than the Arjun. THINK before you open the vomit valve.

If you call "flat wall" a basic point, in defiance of the laws of gravity, there is no hope for you. Perhaps that is why the DRDO threw you out.

Anonymous said...

In response to

not an anon said...

Ajai, it is good that Army trying to improve work place conditions by fitting air conditioning for tanks.

26 July 2008 17:45

You got it wrong, the prime reason for going for air conditioning is as far as i can make out is not for crew comfort but because the electronics are failing in such high heat, crew comfort might be secondary reason though

Mihir said...

Anon bhai, it seems that we are the ones banging our heads on flat walls

People just keep regurgitating the same shit over and over again even though it has been refuted

:(

Anonymous said...

Ajai,
T-90 v/s Arjun tank battle is on in your blog site at 97 comments and going strong. Time for you to break your silence and make the comment count to 100 then trash the whole comment section just like they do in the BR site.

The Army has decided anyways. Yes, we Arjun supporters have definitely hit a flat wall

Anonymous said...

HAHAHA... No wonder they kicked out Harry "the trainee engineer" from DRDO. This guy doesn't know shit; but that happens when you are educated in a madrassa. I think you and your friend "thetruth" are due for your next prayer - because with journalists like ajai asking the right questions, the truth will out and arjun will be inducted in great numbers with all possible speed.

Anonymous said...

Harry Says....

For all you Pro-Arjun T-90 bashers, here's my challenge. Prove the Army wrong! Offer the Arjun up for export and see if a single one sells.

That, my friends, would prove how bad the tank is.

Anonymous said...

No you idiot. Indian Army is the only army in the world that will buy untested, unproven products that even the army of the country of origin will not buy. IA will then spend money further to buy add-ons to make the lemon work (which of course won't matter much - it's like adding shiny rims to an ambassador and calling it a mercedes)

Anonymous said...

What Harry say's is Partly un-true about tank rail transport. The same wagons as in for T-90 or T-crap can be used for transporting Arjun Tank too? How?

When Arjun is loaded into the T-crap wagons, it projects and coses the gap between the Station platform edge and the wagon, resulting in chipping of concrete from Station platform.

So, a wooden plank of 6 inch thickness was kept and Arjun Tank was loaded on to it. There after the Arjun Tank Traveled class I good in all major stations.

The Bafta Wagons are made for a 60 ton class object and Arjun can be transported in it.

Anonymous said...

Join the two lines below on a browser, the weight part of Arjun is discussed here. It is an awesome article.

http://frontierindia.net/
arjun-mbt-weight-implications

Anonymous said...

Harry Says....

See how the talk of exports sends a chill down the spine of the Pro-Arjun lobby. Wouldn't it be a slap in the face when third parties (potential importers) come up with the very same conclusions. You KNOW that the Arjun Tank is crappy. No one will buy it.

Here is what I said earlier:

"For all you Pro-Arjun T-90 bashers, here's my challenge. Prove the Army wrong! Offer the Arjun up for export and see if a single one sells.

That, my friends, would prove how bad the tank is".

Anonymous said...

So 104 comments later the tank battle still rages on. Where are you Ajai ? Time to trash the comment section has come and reset it to 0.

The Army has decided its a open and shut case for Arjun. Go home and file your taxes, the last date is coming. That tax money will be used to buy more numbers of Tin-90 Scrap till the Fuck My Big Tits (FMBT) comes....

Anonymous said...

Sally says....
Why export it we can just gift it to Sri Lanka and Nepal, better still we can post all the technical documents of the armour, fcs, hydro pneumatic suspension and other electronics online so that the Jihadis and our chini bhai bhai can make mass clones of it like the kalashnikovs.

This program was completed by the DRDO anyways in 2005.

Anonymous said...

O i forgot, lets make Arjun an open source project like the Linux, see how Vista the legacy OS is struggling versus the Linux. We can have not just mark 2 or mark 3 but we can have mark 100s of Arjun that way.
Of course, as we all know the Trash-90 Scrap is so powerful that it would be able to take any avataar of Arjun, any day.

Anonymous said...

To "Harry Says"..
"For all you Pro-Arjun T-90 bashers, here's my challenge. Prove the Army wrong! Offer the Arjun up for export and see if a single one sells.

I guess Rafale must suck like hell since it hasn't gotten an export even after trying for so many years. Oh the excuses you guys will come up is ingenious to say the least. If you had put that creativity when you were a trainee, we would have had Arjun MK3 by now.

You keep repeating that Arjun has failed winter trials. Well here's a challenge for. Give specific examples of what failed. For every crap that you write on the failure and attach a newspaper link, there will be another link that will show that Arjun has not failed that. And for every failure for arjun, T-90 will have the same number of failure if not more.

Get it in your thick skull, even the experts from other countries said that they don't understand why IA wants to reinvent making a new tank when all they have to do is take the current Arjun MK1, which itself is a terrific tank built on Indian requirements, and build upon it. Thats how the rest of the world got where they are whether it is tanks or aircrafts or any other product.

Anonymous said...

To "Harry Says"..
"For all you Pro-Arjun T-90 bashers, here's my challenge. Prove the Army wrong! Offer the Arjun up for export and see if a single one sells.

I guess Rafale must suck like hell since it hasn't gotten an export even after trying for so many years.


Export customers wont buy the arjun because it has a flat wall.

Mihir said...

Deeyar Gravity-defying Madrassa Mathematician Harry, all your crappy "arguments" against the Arjun have been refuted. Don't get you panties in a bunch now.

Anyway, Arjun won't be offered for export, because the Maruti 800 is better.

Anonymous said...

Ajai, if indeed you did a volte-face on the Arjun MBT (from your earlier stance of criticizing the DRDO), I congratulate you for it. We need people, especially journalists, who are honest and open-minded enough to change with the facts.

Anonymous said...

Mihir,
Last I heard, Harry was complaining that the Arjun looked "ugly" (because of the "flat wall") and he wasnt very enthusiastic about the brown paint (which can be spotted from satellite).

He also wants you to prove that there is gravity in Rajastan. He knows that there isnt any because he is a trainee engineer. What do you have to say for that ?

Mihir said...

Anon, my figures were wrong, fudged, and distorted. The Arjun is a pathetic piece of crap, and even the cardboard box that contained my TV (imported, of course!) offers better protection, in spite of its flat walls. Plus, the brown paint can confuse Paki laser range-finders, which the current olive green cannot

Jai Ram Ji Ki.

Anonymous said...

Harry Says....

Dear Sally, you forget, there is no technology to protect. Most of the vital components are foreign.

The rest of you pro-Arjun lobby, what makes the likes of you experts on this subject, when more than likely, you haven't ever been inside a moving tank (and probably never will).

I truly thought this blog was about information. It's so transparent now, this is a DRDO (et el) sponsored site to save jobs for people linked to the Arjun program. So much for unbiased reporting ha! ha!

Anonymous said...

Dear "Harry Says",

Can you list all the foreign component in Arjun tank. Do not say etc. at the end of it, list all of them out.

Second, I haven't been inside a tank. Have you been in one? More importantly the person whose blog you are writing has. So try explaining it to him.

BTW what happened to my challenge about listing out all the problems of Arjun. Since you have "sat" inside a tank, you would surely know, correct?

Anonymous said...

Harry says...

Can you list all the foreign component in Arjun tank. Do not say etc. at the end of it, list all of them out.

Are you denying that most of the critical systems (FCS, Engine and transmission) are imported?

Second, I haven't been inside a tank. Have you been in one? More importantly the person whose blog you are writing has. So try explaining it to him.

Yes I have been in one, and yes, my sources, like the author's, are people in the Armoured Corps. In fact, I have my sincere doubts about Ajai's motivations. Perhaps, he is trying to promote the agenda of an organization to which he owes so much, an organization which is his primary source of information and to which he has unprecedented access?

BTW what happened to my challenge about listing out all the problems of Arjun. Since you have "sat" inside a tank, you would surely know, correct?

Please go back and read all the posts again.

Anonymous said...

If there is one thing proved beyond doubt, both these tanks are having their issues.

I cant say how good or bad Arjun is, but we have to stick with it. Make the army be a partner in upgrade programs - let them commit funds to the development and assure DRDO of purchasing a mininum number of tanks. Have more frequent checkpoint so that requirements and actuals are in sync.

What we MUST limit is the amount of money the Army is allowed to spend on imports. You dont go looking for a Pr0st1tut3 if your wife is sick for a few days, you dont throw your kid out of the 10th floor window if he is not acting mature. You stick with them and try to make them better..

How can you justify paying millions to foreigners? How long would you keep doing it? Wake up Harry Fairy, good or bad, it is a product of India and has to be groomed. Apologies for my profanity.

Anonymous said...

Harry Says....


See, that is exactly the point. The DRDO has been given it's chance. 30 years, millions of rupees and 124 limited production run is exactly that. DRDO has still failed.

It doesn't make sense to push a sub-standard tank on the Army. It is unwise, a waste of money and a disaster in the long run

Anonymous said...

DO YOU GUYS SINCERELY BELIEVE THAT THE T-90, BUILT BY THE RUSSIANS WITH OVER 5 DECADES OF TANK-BUILDING EXPERIENCE UNDER THEIR BELT, IS INFERIOR TO THE ARJUN, WHICH WAS ASSEMBLED BY AN ORGANIZATION WITH NO PRIOR EXPERIENCE OR EXPERTISE IN TANK BUILDING? GET REAL!

Anonymous said...

Dear Harry, you have been as near to an actual tank as a teenager has chances of scoring Aishwarya Rai. Spare us your lurid and idiotic fantasies and crawl back into whichever madrassa spawned you. I come from an Army family, am an army brat, and I know how stupid people in Bharadwajs position can be. It is all ego and little rationality which they enforce on others. Your arguments and rhetoric through this series of messages was ludicrous enough to make a grown man laugh in disbelief (me, not you).

Scurry off please and leave this blog to serious folks not agenda driven dilettantes like you.

Anon@1:38, please look up "appeal to authority". The Russians have made good gear like the Tseries for its time, in todays world, the tank is so much obsolete trash. Ask somebody from the armoured corps how they feel, being surrounded by so much combustible ammunition, and what happens when a propellant case tears. You children dont even know the risks we take in using Russian tanks devised for the Rodina's quantity and artillery trump quality style of warfare. We dont have the artillery and the vast flying CAS cover to protect our tanks, each inch of Pak territory will be fought for in blood, and only the most heavily armoured and secure tank can bring crewmen back. The Arjun is that tank, the T-90, is not. What talk of protection when the Russkies are not even willing to share armour tech for the tank, who do you think will know as to how well the tank is made or not. In the Arjuns case, it has been fired at repeatedly and has come out with flying colors.

Grow up children, and Harry, go see a psychiatrist. "Harry says"- as if anyone of us cares a damn about what a teenager says about a topic he has no clue about.

Anonymous said...

And Anon, the Merkava is assembled by an organization, with barely two decades of experience vs the 5 decades of Russia. It is the better tank BY FAR.

The T-90 is actually the T-72 BM, hint hint, the T-72 BU, which the Russians scrambled to rename, after the Gulf war blew the reputation of the T-72 to smithereens. The Russians themselves never regarded this tank as the frontline tank but merely an interim one intended for export to third world countries and the like, while they used the T-80 series and worked on the T-95. Instead, with Ukraine becoming independent, the T-90 project, the fallback became the replacement for the T-80, while a a few hundred of the tanks have been inducted over the years, the Russians are waiting for the T-95.

And you children like this Harry baby, believe the T-90 is something special. It is actually nothing but a reworked, obsolete design with such severe flaws that the Russians would themselves ditch it and run off, if they had the money to operationalise the T-95 ASAP.

Education helps. Educate yourself and stop being opinionated for opinions sake.

Anonymous said...

I agree that in its present form Arjun may/may not be optimum. But planning should be for long term gains. Giving up now will land you nowhere in times of a war.

But the army should commit to the program by buying and then work on improving them. Right now they are trying to point fingers and escape from committing. Current attitude is scary to say the least. DRDO may have its list of inefficiencies - but without proper signs from the customer, they are bound to lose initiative

What if 5 years down the lane, China pressures Russia into disrupting supplies to us? What if there is an Indo-Chinese war? No saying which side Russia will take. Only country we can trust is ourselves.

Anonymous said...

We should apply the Japanese concept of continuous improvement to Arjun.

We started late compared to west, we certainly finished it late. The only way we can make up for that time is by continuous improvement. Out of the 124, every few dozens should feature small improvements over previous batches instead of going back to the drawing table every 10 years.

Test different options in different combinations and the 124th tank will be a Mark-3 or 4.

Frequent information/feedback meetings between IA and DRDO. If possible have a joint working committee with few IA folks and few DRDO folks.Wrap up all that ego and trash it in the nearest dustbin - we will see an amazing tank in less than a decade.

Anonymous said...

Harry Says...

Dude, it's shocking to see how Naive some of you are. The T-90 is a good tank. To address some of the concerns put up earlier...

The trouncing of Russian Armour at the hands of the Americans in the Gulf war was NOT due to the Russian tanks being inferior. The American advantage lay in real-time Battlefield Intelligence, which in the layman's term means a much better awareness of what was going on at both the Tactical and the Strategic level. Add to this the Apache, Laser guided munition and electronic wizardry, and you will appreciate the true picture. The Iraqi problem was anything but the Armour.

Anonymous said...

Harry says...

With due apologies to the serious bloggers, I have been punched below the belt once-too-often. Time to give one back....

To the blogger who said
"But the army should commit to the program by buying and then work on improving them. Right now they are trying to point fingers and escape from committing"
- Perhaps you will marry a known B**** and hope for continuous improvement.


To the blogger who said
"I come from an Army family, am an army brat, and I know how stupid people in Bharadwajs position can be"
- So, being an army brat makes you an authority on the Arjun? Maybe your dad was general so-and-so. Reality check, you are not! Stop behaving like one!

To the blogger who said
"the Merkava is assembled by an organization, with barely two decades of experience vs the 5 decades of Russia. "
- Yup, the Merkava is a jewel but then the Israelis are in a class of their own. If only we could emulate them. The DRDO is nowhere as motivated (or competent) as the IDI. Are you stupid comparing DRDO to IDI?

To the blogger who said
"Frequent information/feedback meetings between IA and DRDO. If possible have a joint working committee with few IA folks and few DRDO folks"
- You are the only one who had a genuinely good idea. Well done. Pat on the back and a kick on the a***. Did you know there were Army officers posted at Avadi and part of almost every step of development.

To stupid people with dumb ideas... please log off and sleep.

Anonymous said...

Harry says...

With due apologies to the serious bloggers, I have been punched below the belt once-too-often. Time to give one back....

To the blogger who said
"But the army should commit to the program by buying and then work on improving them. Right now they are trying to point fingers and escape from committing"
- Perhaps you will marry a known B**** and hope for continuous improvement.


To the blogger who said
"I come from an Army family, am an army brat, and I know how stupid people in Bharadwajs position can be"
- So, being an army brat makes you an authority on the Arjun? Maybe your dad was general so-and-so. Reality check, you are not! Stop behaving like one!

To the blogger who said
"the Merkava is assembled by an organization, with barely two decades of experience vs the 5 decades of Russia. "
- Yup, the Merkava is a jewel but then the Israelis are in a class of their own. If only we could emulate them. The DRDO is nowhere as motivated (or competent) as the IDI. Are you stupid comparing DRDO to IDI?

To the blogger who said
"Frequent information/feedback meetings between IA and DRDO. If possible have a joint working committee with few IA folks and few DRDO folks"
- You are the only one who had a genuinely good idea. Well done. Pat on the back and a kick on the a***. Did you know there were Army officers posted at Avadi and part of almost every step of development.

To stupid people with dumb ideas... please log off and sleep.

Anonymous said...

To "Harry Says"

"Are you denying that most of the critical systems (FCS, Engine and transmission) are imported?"

Those are the only three. And, at least its better than nothing that the Russians are holding back for the T-90 even after we paid them money for the TOT. Serious breach of contract, makes you really wonder how much in cahoots guys like Bharadwaj are with them. Also, it wouldn't make any difference to you that local FCS and Engine are being made, so won't bother repeating that to you since you are not interested in facts.

"Perhaps, he is trying to promote the agenda of an organization to which he owes so much, an organization which is his primary source of information and to which he has unprecedented access?"

Unprecendented access? He is an ex-Army guy, you really think he doesn't also know people in IA? Man, how thick are you?

"Please go back and read all the posts again."

Unfortunately, I did read all your posts. None of the flaws you mentioned have been confirmed in the recent tests. So once again, spit it out, what were the flaws and give us proof.

Every media in recent times whether it is Ajai, Chacko, Sengupta, etc. has been crying hoarse that the Arjun has finally turned the tide. The international experts have said that if you start building a new tank from scratch, it will take 15 years to emerge and then from there on move to prodution. In the meantime, the Russians will keep selling T-90s that even they don't want to buy and are keeping only enough temporarily until their next MBT comes in.

Man those DRDO guys did some job on you when you were a trainee there, if you ever were there in the first place.

There is no point discussing this with you anymore.

Anonymous said...

Indegenization above everything else. Just 1 or 2 generations down we will have products that are par if not better than other international competitors. Patience pays. Look at Europeans. They did not scrap Eurofighter Typhoon though it does not have Stealth in today's times. We are overcritical of indeginous products.

akj said...

not an anon,
1. T-90 does have a better operational range but it has lower speed.
2. T-90's gun is not as good as that of Arjun. Arjun has better accuracy and range. Arjun cant fire AFPDS rounds, but it was not in GSQRs.
3. Arjun has a NBC suite. Refer to http://frontierindia.net/indigenous-nbc-sensor-for-arjun-mbt
4. ERA is add on armour. It can be added to Arjun too. But Arjun's armour is good enough and DOES NOT NEED an ERA for facing Paki tanks.

akj said...

I am not bothered whether Arjun is a better tank than T-90. It is besides the point. The question is whether Arjun is better than T72/T55/Vijayanta which we have in service. If it is better, it needs to be inducted. I dont understand the Army's position of rejecting Arjun.
Arjun may or may not be as good as any imported tank. But it is our (India's) baby. And no good parent would throw their child out if he/she is worse than the neighbour's child. As a taxpayer, I want my money to be utilised on Indian products. Swadeshi should be the mantra in every Indian's life.

Mihir said...

It seems that Harry is arguing will all the intelligence of a chimp with a railroad spike through its head.

Truth by repetition is a valid form of debate for him...

Anonymous said...

Harry Says...

Unprecendented access? He is an ex-Army guy, you really think he doesn't also know people in IA? Man, how thick are you?

Dude, its the DRDO I was referring to. look at all the pics on his site. A majority of them are from DRDO. A special relation? Yup, very special!


Every media in recent times whether it is Ajai, Chacko, Sengupta, etc. has been crying hoarse that the Arjun has finally turned the tide. The international experts have said that if you start building a new tank from scratch, it will take 15 years to emerge and then from there on move to prodution. In the meantime, the Russians will keep selling T-90s that even they don't want to buy and are keeping only enough temporarily until their next MBT comes in.


Are our choices limited to the Arjun or T-90? I don't think so. Why do you?
However, I will add that I have more faith in a tank built by an organization with 50+ years of experience than that knocked together by a relative unknown.

Also, you have touched on one of my very basic question. How did DRDO perform a miracle in the last 2-3 years? Isn't it more plausible that the only thing that has changed is their PR tea?

Arjun may or may not be as good as any imported tank. But it is our (India's) baby. And no good parent would throw their child out if he/she is worse than the neighbour's child.

Dude, place your Son/Daughter in the boots of an Indian soldier. Lets say in the Arjun, he/she has a 49% chance of making in Alive, in the T-90 it's 51%. Which tank would you choose?

Anonymous said...

To "Harry Says"

"Dude, its the DRDO I was referring to. look at all the pics on his site. A majority of them are from DRDO. A special relation? Yup, very special!"

And you didn't understand my point. Ajai has got unprecedented access to DRDO because they have understood the value of PR. Ajai doesn't need unprecedented access to IA to understand tanks because he himself is an ex-Tank guy.

"Are our choices limited to the Arjun or T-90? I don't think so. Why do you?
However, I will add that I have more faith in a tank built by an organization with 50+ years of experience than that knocked together by a relative unknown."

And I have more faith in DRDO. And as long as majority Indians believe in the hard working IA/IAF/IN/DRDO/ISRO etc. this country will move forward even though there will be doubters and naysayers like you. And we will do so INSPITE of guys like you.

"Also, you have touched on one of my very basic question. How did DRDO perform a miracle in the last 2-3 years? Isn't it more plausible that the only thing that has changed is their PR tea?"

Your basic assumption is that DRDO can never be successful. Hence whether the success came about in 2 years or 2 days doesn't matter to you.

The tank took 2 decades and multiple GSQR changes and IA's constant testing and sending it back to reach where it was 2 years ago. After almost fixing anything and everything that was thrown at them, the production started couple years ago. Hence you see the success from couple years ago.

"Dude, place your Son/Daughter in the boots of an Indian soldier. Lets say in the Arjun, he/she has a 49% chance of making in Alive, in the T-90 it's 51%. Which tank would you choose?"

Before you ask someone else, why don't you join IA yourself. If I had to put my son or daughter knowing which tank can better protect between T-90 and Arjun, it will be Arjun the first time and everytime.

You can pull 49% and 51% out of thin air just like the defects in Arjun, but when it comes to facts you got zilch. And when you get caught you run around in circles and bring the same points back even though multiple people have explained in details why it isn't so.

Anyways, I can't show you something that you don't want to see. Peace out..

Anonymous said...

"And I have more faith in DRDO. And as long as majority Indians believe in the hard working IA/IAF/IN/DRDO/ISRO etc. this country will move forward even though there will be doubters and naysayers like you. And we will do so INSPITE of guys like you."

You are right. I do not share your faith in the ability of our RnD facilities. I tend to base my judjement on facts and not jingoism. Here's a simple fact that might help. How much have these RnD facilitites been able to export (and I am not talking about the Arjun here)? Negligible. Had they producing really world-class cutting-edge products, nations would clamour to buy our hardware. I haven't see that happening. That should be the clearest, most impartial judgement on the abilitites of our RnD facilities.

The tank took 2 decades and multiple GSQR changes and IA's constant testing and sending it back to reach where it was 2 years ago.

I don't know about you but I would expect the GSQR to change over 30 years. Would you be happy driving a fiat today or have your GSQRs for a car changed over 30 years?

If I had to put my son or daughter knowing which tank can better protect between T-90 and Arjun, it will be Arjun the first time and everytime.

If you say that with all sincerity, you are commendable, but were you sincere? More practical people would choose the T-90.

You can pull 49% and 51% out of thin air just like the defects in Arjun, but when it comes to facts you got zilch. And when you get caught you run around in circles and bring the same points back even though multiple people have explained in details why it isn't so.

Just like me, the pro-Arjun lobby has not been able to spew out facts and numbers either. On the other side though, I have suceeded in bringing out some vary valid points. The one on exports above for example. Another one being...

DO YOU GUYS SINCERELY BELIEVE THAT THE T-90, BUILT BY THE RUSSIANS WITH OVER 5 DECADES OF TANK-BUILDING EXPERIENCE UNDER THEIR BELT, IS INFERIOR TO THE ARJUN, WHICH WAS ASSEMBLED BY AN ORGANIZATION WITH NO PRIOR EXPERIENCE OR EXPERTISE IN TANK BUILDING? GET REAL! hee hee hee

Anonymous said...

Harry Says...

Please find the "flat wall" concept explained here:
(Please look under section 1.2 Geometry, subsection 1.2.1 Slope and ricochet)
http://www.strategypage.com/
militaryforums/2-19002.aspx

May I also add Ha! Ha! Ha!

Anonymous said...

Think ahead. What do we gain out of ordering more T90s in the longer run?
50 years from now, will still be buying T-175s and T-200s.

This thread is not an Arjun Vs T90 or Arjun Vs Anything else. This is about the effort and intent to indigenize.

We Indians have a lot to learn from the Chinese in this aspect. Look at the Chinese policy. 5 years ago, they realized that Russia is taking them for a ride with expensive but sub-standard sh1t compared to the West . They are working hard at it and making tremendous progress.In another 5 they will be self sufficient in everything. Thats what I call a future superpower. Their attitude is commendable.

Indigenous stuff may not be the best, but dont you get the necessity of going local? China learnt it earlier because, it has been alienated by west for a long time now..

Why china? take our own ISRO or BARC and its nuclear initiatives. Almost 100% local.Whatever is not already local is aggressively reverse engineered or designed and developed here. Our problem is someone has to push us to the limit - challenge us that we cant do it - then we do it.

This is not a isolated technical decision that has gone wrong. It is the entire attitude of the nation which needs repair.

Teews said...

"You are right. I do not share your faith in the ability of our RnD facilities. I tend to base my judjement on facts and not jingoism. Here's a simple fact that might help. How much have these RnD facilitites been able to export (and I am not talking about the Arjun here)? Negligible. Had they producing really world-class cutting-edge products, nations would clamour to buy our hardware. I haven't see that happening. That should be the clearest, most impartial judgement on the abilitites of our RnD facilities."

It has to start somewhere doesn't it? It took us decades to be where we are today. Result is we are starting to sell Dhruv today. Tomorrow it could be Akash/Arjun and what not. If we keep buying, will we ever make indegenous product? And that my friend is the whole arguement. Even if everyone agrees (whcih I don't) that T-90 is marginally better than Arjun, the arguement stands that if we produce more Arjuns today and induct them, tomorrow we will come up with a better product as good as any. The exports will follow. This is all we are argueing about.

You don't win lottery if you don't buy the ticket. So the effort and the determination to take a risk and to take the failures on the chin is the only way to progress. I cannot explain this in any better way to you.

"I don't know about you but I would expect the GSQR to change over 30 years. Would you be happy driving a fiat today or have your GSQRs for a car changed over 30 years?"

No thats not the point. The arguement is that everytime a product was ready based on the GSQR, the IA changed the GSQR. They never intended to buy the Arjun. So even though DRDO was successfull in creating the product, IA changed it and another few years were lost. Case in point is where we stand today.

Israelies stood where we were couple decades ago. In fact we are in a much better position than they were then with the Merkava. But they did it, they pushed for it even though there was oppositon just like we are hearing from you guys today. The result was one of the best tanks out there in the world today.

No one said its going to be easy, no one said we won't have failure along the path. But you plough on and in a few years success will be there to see.

"If you say that with all sincerity, you are commendable, but were you sincere? More practical people would choose the T-90."

Practical people? Or people with agenda? I was as sincere as I can be. I am not a DRDO supporter all the time. I am not a fan of certain policies and things they do. But I also understand that they too are a product of the same system. When IA and IAF play dirty, they didn't have an option but to play dirty.

Problem is after decades, no one trusts each other. And here I blame the majority on GoI and MOD. They should have put their foot down on IA/IAF/DRDO

"Just like me, the pro-Arjun lobby has not been able to spew out facts and numbers either. On the other side though, I have suceeded in bringing out some vary valid points. The one on exports above for example. Another one being..."

No mate you are mistaken, every issue you threw out on Arjun was factually rebutted by many on this blog. At the same time, many also showed you the mirror on the problems and the politics of T-90 and Russia. You choose to ignore it and then you accuse us of being nothing but Arjun lobbyist. Someone once told me "Only a person who is genuinely sleeping can be woken".

"DO YOU GUYS SINCERELY BELIEVE THAT THE T-90, BUILT BY THE RUSSIANS WITH OVER 5 DECADES OF TANK-BUILDING EXPERIENCE UNDER THEIR BELT, IS INFERIOR TO THE ARJUN, WHICH WAS ASSEMBLED BY AN ORGANIZATION WITH NO PRIOR EXPERIENCE OR EXPERTISE IN TANK BUILDING? GET REAL! hee hee hee"

Far too many examples in this world where the world leaders have been beaten by relative newcomers. Don't even bother to support T-90 just based on that. Do not mistake Perception with Reality. Arjun went through its share of sweat for last couple decades. It is our quest to make sure it is successful. Inspite of the naysayers like you.

Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...

The more I read on Arjun, the more confused I become. I have been following (though not technically) for more than a decade and a half (along with Nag project), however, it seems that all the projects have far exceeded their time to delivery and induction.

I am not too critical about DRDO, because as an organisation, its their duty to ramp up on technology and ensure that we can have indegenous next generation tanks.

However, I absolutely do not agree to the thought that Army should be bound to receive atleast 500 tanks for Mark II be created. I am not sure how this is a pre-condition.

If Army is not ready to accept deliveries of Arjun, there must be good reasons behind it. I don't think this is because of whims of some Army Generals. I have stayed close to army personnel too long to know that Army desperately looks for any technical edge they can get. So if Arjun is a world beater tank and T-90 is trash, I would've have assumed that Army would have accepted Arjun.

If Arjun is not battle worthy or has too many apparent defects, then I am not ready for our soldiers to set foot in it in a war. Even if Army does not place for any more order, GOI should ensure that the project stays live and active, and DRDO works on the fMBT. We have paid a fraction of the cost involved in Tank R&D and expect to create a world beater.

I pay taxes (and pretty heavy ones at that) and I am fine with my tax money going into the R&D, as long as some time in future we are self-sufficient in Weapons technology, either by internal R&D or technology transfers, I really do not mind.

Zodiac said...

It seems that T-90 baiters are having a field day in the popular press. So, now a career politician and a career journalist are more trusted decision makers on the Indian Army tank inventory than the DGMF himself. Well how about letting DGMF advise you guys on how to win elections and write articles. Souns absurd doesnt it? Well so does this article.

T-90 is a superb tank incrporating the best elements of Russian tank designs. It has a mix of hi tech Composite armour and ERA. A powerful gun armament and high mobility due to a 1000hp engine. Each and every component is proven in the earlier T-72 that Army operates and loves. I am not against Arjun, but I wonder how objective such verbal shouts of approval by a bunch of jawans in the field can be, who are no doubt moved more by sentiments attached to an indegenous product. What you have here is a rumor piece packaged as a news report. Stop shaking the credibility of the Indian Army by fueling hysterical discussions on the chat forums, who sight such news reports as "facts".

Anonymous said...

The problem with DRDO is its claim of being indegenous. The major critical components are foreign made.